Book Of Mormon DNA argument impressions

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Emower
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Book Of Mormon DNA argument impressions

Post by Emower »

I just read Southerton’s “Losing a lost tribe” and a collection of articles published by FARMS dealing with DNA and the BOM “so called” problems. It was interesting to read both sides simultaneously. I have summarized a critics position and an apologists position below. There is a ton to delve into and I just barely scratched the surface.
1. Critic: A plain reading of the Book of Mormon indicates that the American Indian and South American indigenous people are descendants of Lehi who traveled to America from Israel. DNA studies have been unable to detect Middle Eastern DNA in any of these people, thus casting some serious doubts on the historicity of the story. Haplogroup X has also failed to bear out any connection to Middle Eastern origins, and recent evidence indicates Asiatic origins of that group. It is concentrated heavily in Alaska, Canada, and Northern North America. Any other European DNA seems to concentrate around areas that had extensive colonial contact with Europeans. A plain reading does not indicate that any people were present when the Jaredites came, and only one person was left around to tell the tale of woe when the Mulekites came. So by the time the Mulekites and Lehites came, there was not anyone there. Anyone who suggests otherwise is engaging in revisionist history because that was the theory that Joseph Smith adhered to, all the prophets since Joseph Smith (temple dedications in South America in the 2000’s included references to those people being the descendants of “Father Lehi”) and that is what every Mormon person is taught growing up. Even Elder Oaks was under the impression that this was the case. “Here I was introduced to the idea that the Book of Mormon is not a history of all of the people who have lived on the continents of North and South America in all ages of the earth. Up to that time I had assumed that it was. If that were the claim of the Book of Mormon, any piece of historical, archaeological, or linguistic evidence to the contrary would weigh in against the Book of Mormon, and those who rely exclusively on scholarship would have a promising position to argue.” – The historicity of the book of Mormon, BYU Religious studies center.
It’s interesting that Elder Oaks has decided not to be perfectly clear on this matter given his long years of potential opportunity to dispel this misguided thought, but whatever.

2. BOM Supporter (Apologist): Number one defense.There were people here when the Jaradites, Mulekites, and Lehi and Co. arrived. These Israelites lived, loved, and died all in a very small part of Mesoamerica which we have not found yet. Their DNA was subsumed by people they interbred with, and we have not been able to detect their DNA because we have not sampled the right populations yet. A careful reading of the Book of Mormon will reveal the instances where other people can be inferred.
The number two defense is dependent on the first and it involves musing on what science can and cannot do. Science cannot prove a negative. It cannot tell us that there is no possibility that a small group of people didn’t come here. That said, there are also lots of problems with the science if you indeed make the mistake of using science to try and prove that the natives do not have Israelite DNA, there are a whole host of problems that await you. Genetic drift, founder effect, Hardy-Weinberg assumption violations, unique DNA signatures, What do the wives DNA look like, gene flow pre-extermination with already existing people, gene flow post-extermination, limited geography, and natural selection.
There are a lot of sub arguments but they mostly relate to either of the above situations, either your science is not precise enough, or you shouldn’t expect to be using science anyway.

Here are some points on the apologist side I found reasonable.
There are a few instances where early church leaders seemed to acknowledge the possibility of there being people present when Lehi showed up. The times and seasons published a weird account of an Indian group which claimed to be led by God to this continent sometime around the time of Moses. Times and Seasons Sept 15 1842. Apologists attribute this to Joseph Smith because he was editor at the time. I can see that. Matthew Roper published that and other instances in his article, Nephi’s neighbors. As I read through them again, I see problems with some of them I didn’t see at first blush. Typical. George Ottinger published a bunch of stuff that supported this view in 1875. He was not a church leader though and his views did not catch on. B.H. Roberts wrote about pre-nephi people as did Anthony Ivins, Sjodahl, Widtstoe, Richard L. Evans, Crowley, Nibley and others. There were a surprising amount of people who taught this even pretty early on, suggesting this view is not entirely revisionist. People sensed the bullcrap early on possibly and felt the need to explain it away. It is true that we don’t know anything about the wives DNA, or Zoram’s DNA. I don’t think it is a stretch to imagine that they had Israelite DNA, but it is a fair point. Everybody including Ishmael could have married an Asian girl…

In the article entitled “Addressing questions surrounding the Book Of Mormon and DNA Research,” John Butler describes a scenario involving Icelanders and their Y-Chromosome and MtDNA. 131,060 people were studied and a minority of ancestors only 150 years earlier contributed a majority of the descendants DNA. This means to apologists that if ancestry gets that muddy after only 150 years, what about 2000 years with a small population to begin with. Seems legit and the study checks out, although the scope of the study was limited to inferences about the evolution rate of haplotypes and coalescent analyses for mtDNA and Y chromosome dating. Not sure if it can be applied in the way Butler wants to? This doesn’t answer anything, it just punts the football into some pretty tall weeds.

Here are some points I found unreasonable on the apologist side of things:
Just about everything else. Seriously. I have viewed the vitriol directed towards Mormon apologists with some sympathy for the apologists. It’s like that awkward kid that gets picked on a lot and you go to defend him only to have him get angry at you and kick sand in your eyes. Turns out that kid was really weird and got picked on for a reason. Yup, turns out the apologists really do offer conflicting statements in the same book and even in the same article. They really do interpret scripture past what sane people would do. Although, to be fair, they do that because our prophets, seers, and revelators won’t do that for us. They follow the pattern of throwing spaghetti at the wall, seeing what sticks, then bearing testimony.
One of the points that is maddening though is Oaks’ statement on proving a negative and science just doesn’t have a place in assessing the Book of Mormons historical claims. Here it is,
…the case for the Book of Mormon is the stronger case to argue. The case against the historicity of the Book of Mormon has to prove a negative. You do not prove a negative by prevailing on one debater’s point or by establishing some subsidiary arguments.
The apologists echo this refrain by trumpeting the fact that one cannot use science to prove that something is not possible, is not there, or will not be found. This delves into philosophical territory that is sort of murky, but science can weigh in on a negative. I don’t want to delve too much into this because in my experience it always turns into a sort of fallacy-fest where one person tries to sword fight the other with the powers of identifying fallacies. It seems like pointing out fallacies becomes a phallic endeavor with everyone waving around their best one and they are super proud of it. But I digress.
The evidence of absence is a valuable tool in a scientist’s toolbox. The absence of malignant cells indicates the absence of cancer, even though nothing was found. Yes, you could say that there could be small amounts of cancer that were not detected, but who wants to live that way? Plus, that’s what confidence intervals and significance levels are for.
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Re: Book Of Mormon DNA argument impressions

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This are my knee jerk reactions, I plan on going through the references that both books list and crawling the seedy underbelly of the all the board's search functions for discussions.
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Re: Book Of Mormon DNA argument impressions

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Cross posting a link from mormondiscussions board.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28162001
Mesoamerica isn't looking quite as promising.
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Re: Book Of Mormon DNA argument impressions

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Here is another really cool website I found from another discussion over at mormondiscussion board, http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3 ... =1&t=33260


This website looks at admixtures detected in some select populations through the world, the Maya were one of the populations looked at.
http://admixturemap.paintmychromosomes.com/
Its not a death knell, (lets face nothing will be as long as the scope of Lehi's impact can continue to contract) but it is interesting.
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Re: Book Of Mormon DNA argument impressions

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Emower wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:12 pm Haplogroup X has also failed to bear out any connection to Middle Eastern origins, and recent evidence indicates Asiatic origins of that group
Actually, haplogroup X does have connections at least with Europe, the problem is that the Kennewick DNA shattered any chance of it having anything to do with proposed BoM peoples. Kennewick Man died 4000 years before the Jaredites arrived. I can't imagine for the life of me why Rod Meldrum and friends keep waving the Haplogoup X flag as their smoking gun.
Emower wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:12 pm
There are a few instances where early church leaders seemed to acknowledge the possibility of there being people present when Lehi showed up...There were a surprising amount of people who taught this even pretty early on, suggesting this view is not entirely revisionist.
I was surprised by this too, but we need to take into account that it was a much debated problem in the 19th Century. Pre-DNA modern LDS folk had forgotten all about it and simply assumed the simple version of peopling the Americas that is told in the BoM (before the apologists started rewriting it). Cyrus Thomas finally wrapped the whole thing up with his survey of thousands of Native American mounds and 1890 publication in the Annual Report of the Bureau of Ethnology, in which he laid to rest any notions that the mounds were not built by ancestors of the modern Indians.
Emower wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:12 pm In the article entitled “Addressing questions surrounding the Book Of Mormon and DNA Research,” John Butler describes a scenario involving Icelanders and their Y-Chromosome and MtDNA. 131,060 people were studied and a minority of ancestors only 150 years earlier contributed a majority of the descendants DNA. This means to apologists that if ancestry gets that muddy after only 150 years, what about 2000 years with a small population to begin with. Seems legit and the study checks out, although the scope of the study was limited to inferences about the evolution rate of haplotypes and coalescent analyses for mtDNA and Y chromosome dating. Not sure if it can be applied in the way Butler wants to? This doesn’t answer anything, it just punts the football into some pretty tall weeds.
This just didn't strike me as that significant because, if I understand it correctly, they were trying to link specific people to specific ancestors, which is not what population genetics is all about. The study casts no doubt on the origins of Icelanders.
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Re: Book Of Mormon DNA argument impressions

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Thanks for posting this. It's fascinating stuff that will take a while to read.
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Re: Book Of Mormon DNA argument impressions

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The Gospel Topics essay cites the Icelandic study as evidence for genetic drift in order to strengthen their argument for how the Lehite DNA might have vanished, yet they also tell the story of how Ugo Perego, after sequencing his DNA, was surprised to discover that he had Native American ancestors, even though he had assumed that all of his ancestors were Italian. That is a very weird combination of evidences because the second case more or less invalidates the first, as far as the Book of Mormon argument goes, by demonstrating the amazing power of population genetics. And then, later in the essay, they refer to the Perego story as hypothetical. Huh?

In a discussion where someone tries to write off population genetics as unreliable and to suggest that DNA easily vanishes without a trace the proper response is to ask them if they have had their DNA tested, and if so, how much neanderthal DNA they have.
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Re: Book Of Mormon DNA argument impressions

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Hagoth wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:33 pm
Actually, haplogroup X does have connections at least with Europe, the problem is that the Kennewick DNA shattered any chance of it having anything to do with proposed BoM peoples. Kennewick Man died 4000 years before the Jaredites arrived. I can't imagine for the life of me why Rod Meldrum and friends keep waving the Haplogoup X flag as their smoking gun.
Yeah, Its been pretty well shot down. Its interesting to me that academics will include Meldrum's crackpottery in their articles.
Here is a link to an interesting and quite recent summary of the Haplogroup X2 and X2a issues. This author doesnt put stock in any of the hypotheses that link X2a to Europe or solutrean origins.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10. ... 0000000040
If you dont have access to this paper PM me and I will send it. I have access through my work. There is also Scihub...

It is fascinating to read through and see that some of the same arguments that apologists and critics lob at each other are the same arguments and struggles that academics use as well. Here is a qoute:
Thus, at this time, there is simply no evidence that X2a evolved in the Near East, Europe, or anywhere in West Eurasia. Stanford and Bradley (2012) and Oppenheimer et al. (2014) argue that the absence of evidence for X2a inWest Eurasia is not evidence of absence, but of course, the same holds for Siberia. There is no compelling reason to think that X2a is more likely to have come from Europe than Siberia.
Sounds pretty familiar.
These studies have all reached the same conclusion and suggest that haplogroup X2a is likely to have originated in the same population(s) as the other American founder haplogroups, by virtue of having comparable coalescence dates and demographic histories
Interesting, however I think maybe Butlers point from the Icelanders study may apply here if Coalescence dating is the key evidence.

The Kennewick man is a fascinating case, as is the Anzick child.
However, the newly published findings from the genome of Kennewick Man of Washington state are clearly at odds with this assessment. Kennewick Man’s remains were directly dated to 8690–8400 cal yr BP, and the question of his affiliation with European (and Polynesian) populations was explicitly tested with genome-wide data — and rejected (Rasmussen et al. 2015). He is closely related to other ancient and contemporary Native Americans and shows clear Siberian affinities, with no recent European ancestry. Significantly, Kennewick Man’s mitochondrial DNA belongs to haplogroup X2a, and he exhibits the most basal X2a lineage yet found (Rasmussen et al. 2015). Because this study places the oldest and most basal X2a lineage in the Pacific Northwest, it deals a serious blow to claims of genetic support for the Solutrean hypothesis. By Oppenheimer et al.’s own logic, this finding supports a Beringian, not Solutrean, origin for X2a. Thus, Kennewick Man’s genome strongly suggests that X2a was not the result of trans-Atlantic gene flow.
Hagoth wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:33 pm
Emower wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:12 pm In the article entitled “Addressing questions surrounding the Book Of Mormon and DNA Research,” John Butler describes a scenario involving Icelanders and their Y-Chromosome and MtDNA. 131,060 people were studied and a minority of ancestors only 150 years earlier contributed a majority of the descendants DNA. This means to apologists that if ancestry gets that muddy after only 150 years, what about 2000 years with a small population to begin with. Seems legit and the study checks out, although the scope of the study was limited to inferences about the evolution rate of haplotypes and coalescent analyses for mtDNA and Y chromosome dating. Not sure if it can be applied in the way Butler wants to? This doesn’t answer anything, it just punts the football into some pretty tall weeds.
This just didn't strike me as that significant because, if I understand it correctly, they were trying to link specific people to specific ancestors, which is not what population genetics is all about. The study casts no doubt on the origins of Icelanders.
Isnt this what we are doing with the Kennewick man though? I am not at all an expert in population genetics so educating me may be required here, but dont we try to link a specific person (e.g. Kennewick man or Anzick child) to some (less specific, but still limited) ancestors? You are right in that the study casts no doubt on Icelanders origins as far as I am aware of them, but if they depend on some coalescent analyses it may cast doubts on those?
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Re: Book Of Mormon DNA argument impressions

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Emower wrote: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:29 am Yeah, Its been pretty well shot down. Its interesting to me that academics will include Meldrum's crackpottery in their articles.
Here is a link to an interesting and quite recent summary of the Haplogroup X2 and X2a issues. This author doesnt put stock in any of the hypotheses that link X2a to Europe or solutrean origins.


Just to be clear, I wasn't advocating the Solutrean hypothesis. My understanding is that haplogroup X probably originated somewhere around the Medeterranean and spread outward into Europe and Asia. Considering that the oldest American DNA we have sequenced (Naia, Anzick, Kennewick) all have Siberian origins, it seems like the Siberian route is by far the most likely for Haplogroup X.
Emower wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:12 pm Isnt this what we are doing with the Kennewick man though? I am not at all an expert in population genetics so educating me may be required here, but dont we try to link a specific person (e.g. Kennewick man or Anzick child) to some (less specific, but still limited) ancestors?
I need to read more about the Icelandic study, but I thought they were looking for specific similarities between living Icelanders and the remains of specific individuals to compare against recorded genealogies. Am I wrong about that?

The Gospel Topics essay and other BoM apologetics try to distract us into thinking we need actual DNA from Lehi's wife. We don't need to prove that anyone was or wasn't directly descended from her as long as we can show generally where their ancestors came from. We no more need that than we need DNA from Kennewick Man's great-great-great grandmother, or than Ugo Perego needed DNA from his great-great-great grandmother to discover, much to his surprise, that he has Native American ancestors.

And as far as haplogroup X is concerned, there is absolutely no point in considering it as supporting evidence for the Book of Mormon. Even if we had Sariah's mother's DNA and it had the X haplogroup it doesn't change the fact that Kennewick man was walking around in Washington state with a genome chock full o' haplogroup X 5,000 years before Sariah was born.

The whole problem with Mormon DNA apologetics is that they aren't attempting to present any evidence at all, they're merely trying to make you doubt the science while they are busy rushing the goalpost down the field from the church's original teaching that Book of Mormon peoples are the "primary ancestors" of the Native Americans to the new apologetic that reimaginines a lesser version of the story that requires us to expect that there are no BoM people left. -because they have NO evidence for Jaredites, Mulekites or Lehites. None. It's not just that they don't show up in anyone's genome, they didn't leave any artifacts, and all of the flora and fauna vanished with them. These nations and everything associated with them have apparently fallen entirely between the cracks. Excuse making of this degree, regardless of how many academic papers they quote, does not count as evidence. It's merely excuse making. They're throwing up a smokescreen with a lot of sciency facts thrown in to make it appear substantial.

I have said that I could hypothesize that Jerusalem was actually founded by Native Americans who crossed the Atlantic in canoes, and I could support that claim with EXACT same arguments that church apologists are using to support the BoM story. I could also claim that Australian aborigines built the Great Wall of China and support it to the same degree with the same arguments. I would move all of the focus from the actual evidence to discussions about how DNA changes over time and claim that my canoe travelers have simply been swallowed up by the ravages of time, but it doesn't make my claims any stronger. Somehow we are now expected to believe that lack of evidence is some sort of evidence. Crazy.

The Book of Mormon's title page tells us that it is “written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel.” Now, after all of God's efforts to deliver the book that is the keystone of our religion to those people, LDS apologists are telling us that we can't even find them?

The church's biggest problem is that they make very literal claims that are scientifically testable. Then once the ability to test those claims comes along the church's claims always fail the test, just as you would expect if they were bogus claims. That's what science is for, not for generally lowering people's expectations about the possibility of gaining understanding. I don't blame them for doing everything they can to save face, but for anyone who is well educated and not already indoctrinated into the faith, they have lost the battle. Their claims have repeatedly fallen flat. They will continue to fight and they will be able to keep some people in their camp, but the bigger picture is that they have lost the fight and no one will take them seriously.

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Re: Book Of Mormon DNA argument impressions

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Emower wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:12 pm The apologists echo this refrain by trumpeting the fact that one cannot use science to prove that something is not possible, is not there, or will not be found. This delves into philosophical territory that is sort of murky, but science can weigh in on a negative. I don’t want to delve too much into this because in my experience it always turns into a sort of fallacy-fest where one person tries to sword fight the other with the powers of identifying fallacies.
I'm not sure how meaningful this type of statement is. The scientific method doesn't attempt to prove a negative for this very reason. In the case of historical questions, it can say things like "no evidence has been found that supports the hypothesis". It can also say things like "there is evidence that doesn't support the hypothesis". In either case, science would never justify the acceptance of a claim without evidence. If it did, then there would be no way to ever dismiss or accept anything. This is the most contradictory part of the apologist's tool box, when it makes this claim of negative evidence, because they are essentially arguing that nothing can ever really be known. This may make philosophic sense in that it justifies skepticism, but the degree of skepticism they argue for becomes extreme when entering the territory of discarding evidence which does not support a claim, in favor of the possibility of absent evidence which does, for the sole purpose of maintaining a preexisting belief.
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Re: Book Of Mormon DNA argument impressions

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oliver_denom wrote: Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:51 am The scientific method doesn't attempt to prove a negative for this very reason.

In the case of historical questions, it can say things like "no evidence has been found that supports the hypothesis". It can also say things like "there is evidence that doesn't support the hypothesis". In either case, science would never justify the acceptance of a claim without evidence.
This is kind of my point, in either case, science can be used to weigh in. Science has to do, at its foundation, with evidence. Both the discovery of evidence and the absence of it. Apologists and apparently Oaks would have you believe that science is only involved with the discovery of evidence, and not the discussion of the absence of it. I think we are probably on the same page, I just suck at communicating my ideas.
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Re: Book Of Mormon DNA argument impressions

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Emower wrote: Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:33 am
oliver_denom wrote: Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:51 am The scientific method doesn't attempt to prove a negative for this very reason.

In the case of historical questions, it can say things like "no evidence has been found that supports the hypothesis". It can also say things like "there is evidence that doesn't support the hypothesis". In either case, science would never justify the acceptance of a claim without evidence.
This is kind of my point, in either case, science can be used to weigh in. Science has to do, at its foundation, with evidence. Both the discovery of evidence and the absence of it. Apologists and apparently Oaks would have you believe that science is only involved with the discovery of evidence, and not the discussion of the absence of it. I think we are probably on the same page, I just suck at communicating my ideas.
I think it's also a misunderstanding of faith on the part of the apologist. It's defined in Hebrews as "...the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Moroni repeats the same sentiment, "...faith is things which are hoped for and not seen". Alma adds a qualifier, "...if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true."

If we take these three definitions at face value, then there are two criteria necessary for faith. 1) There can't be any tangible evidence, meaning it isn't seen. 2) It has to be true. This can be a guide to understanding what we can and can't have faith in. For example, the Book of Abraham facsimiles. Can you have faith that Joseph Smith provided a correct translation of the Egyptian printed in the scripture? For the first criteria, is there tangible evidence? Yes, there is, it's right in front of your face. You can see it. That alone would disqualify faith, but we can go further. What does the evidence tell us? It tells us that Smith's translation is incorrect. So that's one claim that you can't have faith in, not by any definition of faith that I'm aware of. Can you have faith that the earth is 6,000 years old? Can you have faith that life on earth was created in an instance instead of through a process of evolution? In both cases: 1) Evidence exists 2) The evidence shows the belief to be untrue, therefore you can't have faith in those ideas either.

Can similar evidences be taken into account for the Book of Mormon when asking whether or not faith is possible? It depends on what is being asked. If its whether Smith translated ancient records, then we don't have evidence that can be seen in the form of gold plates, but we do have the Abraham evidence. Knowing what we know, is it reasonable to have faith in other translation claims if the one we know about is false? Maybe, but its a poor use of judgement. Do we have direct evidence describing life in the Americas, and does that match what the Book of Mormon describes? Yes we do, and no it doesn't. It's possible that the BofM location hasn't been found, but again, knowing what we know about other claims about history, is it reasonable to do so?
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Re: Book Of Mormon DNA argument impressions

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oliver_denom wrote: Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:17 pm The evidence shows the belief to be untrue, therefore you can't have faith in those ideas either.
Unfortunately our church leaders have created a new definition for faith in the form of "doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith." The ability to discard evidence and reason is considered noble and praiseworthy.
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Re: Book Of Mormon DNA argument impressions

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…the case for the Book of Mormon is the stronger case to argue. The case against the historicity of the Book of Mormon has to prove a negative. You do not prove a negative by prevailing on one debater’s point or by establishing some subsidiary arguments.
This is indeed true, I cannot prove Russell's teapot is not in orbit around the sun. However, the rational response is not to continue believing in Russell's teapot because it has not or cannot be proven to be false. The rational response is to not believe in Russell's Teapot until compelling evidence that it exists is presented.
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Re: Book Of Mormon DNA argument impressions

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Dravin wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:53 am
…the case for the Book of Mormon is the stronger case to argue. The case against the historicity of the Book of Mormon has to prove a negative. You do not prove a negative by prevailing on one debater’s point or by establishing some subsidiary arguments.
This is indeed true, I cannot prove Russell's teapot is not in orbit around the sun. However, the rational response is not to continue believing in Russell's teapot because it has not or cannot be proven to be false. The rational response is to not believe in Russell's Teapot until compelling evidence that it exists is presented.
It's also the case that most of these discussions can be summed up in a single sentence, "You're arguing as if I'm trying to convince you the Book of Mormon is false. To the contrary, you're trying to convince me that it's true, and are failing." I've never had the occasion to walk up to a member of the church and try to disprove their beliefs. It's usually the other way around.
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Re: Book Of Mormon DNA argument impressions

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A recent argument that I have seen is that Nephites were merely a sociopolitical movement within the Maya culture, so we should not expect to see any evidence of them, either in their DNA or in their material culture. OK, I understand why apologists must make such an assertion, you don't have to worry about evidence if you can be convinced that there should be no evidence of Nephites because there would be nothing to distinguish them from the rest of the society in which they lived, but I can't see how it is a satisfactory answer to anyone. It doesn't answer why the Jaredites and Nephites had metal when the Olmec and Mayans didn't. It doesn't explain the Nephite livestock and crops, or their wars - the largest in the history of the world - or why they had names like Nephihah and Timothy while the Maya had names like Great-Sun First Quetzal Macaw, or the complete absence of Hebrew and Egyptian writing.

Was the destruction of the entire land by earthquakes merely sociopolitical? How about the 18 cities that were crushed under mountains, burned to the ground, and swallowed up by the sea? How do you explain two days without darkness or three days of impenetrable darkness as only occurring to a sociopolitical subculture? Cattle being herded by snakes? The appearance of the son of God?

Sorry, I'm getting a bit off topic here but there seems to be an apologetic pattern spreading outward from the DNA debate that merely seems to be designed around preventing you from seeing the forest for the trees, or more accurately, expecting you to see a forest even though there are no trees.
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Not Buying It
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Re: Book Of Mormon DNA argument impressions

Post by Not Buying It »

2 Nephi 1:8 deals a fatal blow to conjecture that other nations populated the land in addition to the Nephites, or that the Nephites were a subset of a larger population:

8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.
Apologists know the evidence isn't on their side. That's why they play the games they do. Because they have to.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph
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Emower
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Re: Book Of Mormon DNA argument impressions

Post by Emower »

Hagoth wrote: Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:27 am
Emower wrote: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:29 am Yeah, Its been pretty well shot down. Its interesting to me that academics will include Meldrum's crackpottery in their articles.
Here is a link to an interesting and quite recent summary of the Haplogroup X2 and X2a issues. This author doesnt put stock in any of the hypotheses that link X2a to Europe or solutrean origins.


Just to be clear, I wasn't advocating the Solutrean hypothesis. My understanding is that haplogroup X probably originated somewhere around the Medeterranean and spread outward into Europe and Asia. Considering that the oldest American DNA we have sequenced (Naia, Anzick, Kennewick) all have Siberian origins, it seems like the Siberian route is by far the most likely for Haplogroup X.
Emower wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:12 pm Isnt this what we are doing with the Kennewick man though? I am not at all an expert in population genetics so educating me may be required here, but dont we try to link a specific person (e.g. Kennewick man or Anzick child) to some (less specific, but still limited) ancestors?
I need to read more about the Icelandic study, but I thought they were looking for specific similarities between living Icelanders and the remains of specific individuals to compare against recorded genealogies. Am I wrong about that?
I think you are right, they were definitely using recorded, known ancestry data. But the authors and the people who cite their paper have no problem inserting their findings into a broader discussion. My impression from the article, which is technical for me is that they seem to limit their application to questioning the mutation clock and thus coalescence conclusions. They have a discussion about genetic drift in the paper, but they limit that discussion to the situation at hand. Butler seems more than willing to take that discussion and apply it broadly. Naturally.


I never realized how tied this issue was to geography. I never liked thinking about geography, but the DNA subjects really interested me. Know I see that the two are inseparable.

Hagoth's comment about misdirection while busy rushing the goalpost down the field is both visual and spot on. It is so clear to people who are willing to let the evidence speak.
oliver_denom wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:57 pm [quote=Dravin post_id=22666 time=<a href="tel:1503157981">1503157981</a> user_id=198]
…the case for the Book of Mormon is the stronger case to argue. The case against the historicity of the Book of Mormon has to prove a negative. You do not prove a negative by prevailing on one debater’s point or by establishing some subsidiary arguments.
This is indeed true, I cannot prove Russell's teapot is not in orbit around the sun. However, the rational response is not to continue believing in Russell's teapot because it has not or cannot be proven to be false. The rational response is to not believe in Russell's Teapot until compelling evidence that it exists is presented.
It's also the case that most of these discussions can be summed up in a single sentence, "You're arguing as if I'm trying to convince you the Book of Mormon is false. To the contrary, you're trying to convince me that it's true, and are failing." I've never had the occasion to walk up to a member of the church and try to disprove their beliefs. It's usually the other way around.[/quote]

That isn't the case with me all of the time. Sometimes I am the aggressor. I would however be much better off if I would leave it to people to make a convincing case.
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Hagoth
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Re: Book Of Mormon DNA argument impressions

Post by Hagoth »

My personal apologetic hypothesis: Russell's teapot is a Nephite artifact. Two birds, one stone.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
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deacon blues
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Re: Book Of Mormon DNA argument impressions

Post by deacon blues »

oliver_denom wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:57 pm
Dravin wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:53 am
…the case for the Book of Mormon is the stronger case to argue. The case against the historicity of the Book of Mormon has to prove a negative. You do not prove a negative by prevailing on one debater’s point or by establishing some subsidiary arguments.
This is indeed true, I cannot prove Russell's teapot is not in orbit around the sun. However, the rational response is not to continue believing in Russell's teapot because it has not or cannot be proven to be false. The rational response is to not believe in Russell's Teapot until compelling evidence that it exists is presented.
It's also the case that most of these discussions can be summed up in a single sentence, "You're arguing as if I'm trying to convince you the Book of Mormon is false. To the contrary, you're trying to convince me that it's true, and are failing." I've never had the occasion to walk up to a member of the church and try to disprove their beliefs. It's usually the other way around.
Oaks statement is sophistry. One can say the the BOM was translated from gold plates because Joseph said so. Disproving that is a negative. It is entirely different to say the BOM is historically accurate just because the book is tangible. It would be like saying the LOTR is historically accurate. No one is expected to disprove that in order for us to dismiss its historicity. To me it is obviously two different points.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.
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