LDS Website: "When society and the Church understood far less about abuse"

[Not Buying It]

So we have this quote from an LDS Newroom article (http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/h ... oach-abuse):

Child abuse is a societal plague that we have learned more about in the last several decades. When the Church has faced claims of child abuse at the courthouse, the great majority of these claims occurred decades ago, when society and the Church understood far less about abuse. The Church has always been concerned for the welfare of children: and as awareness of the scourge of child abuse has grown in society, the Church has been at the forefront of efforts to combat it.

OK, first off, why exactly does God go to a lot of trouble to send angels with swords to make sure Joseph Smith institutes polygamy, but can't be bothered to send any inspiration so the Church isn't in a position of "understanding far less about abuse"? God's priorities are pretty out of whack. Sure, let countless tragedies happen because your Church doesn't understand abuse, but make damn well sure it knows to practice polygamy.

Secondly, how dare they claim "the Church has been at the forefront of efforts to combat" abuse? Excuse me, there are all kinds of members with all kinds of stories about how abuse was swept under the rug by priesthood leaders. I know of one in my own family. It makes me angry, because it is a lie - and they know it's a lie. I get more and more tired every day of the Orwellian nature of this organization I inexplicably still belong to.

[Corsair]

The "Angel with a sword" story used to be the domain of obscure statements few people knew about and few believers would react to. But we have been blessed by an official essay validating its use to explain away scandal and weirdness with plural marriage. This will not end well for the church. This is a new standard of judging if an event or commandment is important. Importance via having "Angel with a sword" show up will stand in bitter contrast with all the times that no angel showed up, either armed or unarmed. The abuse cases seem like a good time for divine intervention when none actually came.

[Deepthinker]

Wow! You make some great points, Not Buying It.

That line: "when society and the Church understood far less about abuse" really gets me upset.

Doesn't it sound like "we didn't know it was that bad back then and neither did society, because we didn't understand it like we do today"?

It just sounds like a very weak setup for excusing past abuse.

[Palerider]

The church has had a revelation on this subject for the past 2000 years. The problem has been that the church valued protecting the abuser's standing and the church's reputation over following the Lord's commandments. They share the dubious distinction of being on the same level as the Catholics in this matter.

Matthew 18:6

"But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

What else do they need to understand?

[Red Ryder]

What do you expect when the founder of the church was inappropriate with teenagers?

[w2mz]

"when society and the Church understood far less about abuse"

Notice who takes the first bullet in that comment? Society. Just like when Uchdorf made his comments about "some MEMBERS and leaders" have made mistakes, blah blah blah. The poor church was only following society's lead on abuse. They're the real victims here.

Besides, stopping abuse is not a doctrinal principle like polygamy is. I mean heck, there are only so many angels with flaming swords available so God needs to pick his battles.

In the end it's all just masturbatorial spin. They're speaking to the members that are already patting themselves on the back while they drink the cool aid. We can't expect the church to tell the truth, that may disillusion someone.

[Give It Time]

NBI, you just come over here and sit by me. You're not alone in your views. You know you're not.

[Not Buying It]

NBI, you just come over here and sit by me. You're not alone in your views. You know you're not.

I appreciate that. A lot of us feel pretty alone in our views when we aren't online.

[Palerider]

"as awareness of the scourge of child abuse has grown in society, the Church has been at the forefront of efforts to combat it."

They may think a statement like this gives them cover until one realizes that the tools they recommend using to combat or conquer being an abuser are ineffective.

Prayer and scripture study and paying your tithing aren't going to get it.

Abusers are basically frustrated, emotionally immature, cowardly bullies who can't handle the stress that comes with being an adult. Overcoming being an abuser is the art of controlling one's emotions. It's a growth process that takes time, work and often times a person shouldn't be with a spouse or children until they have achieved a certain level of maturity. Divorce, separation, and/or therapy may be the best answer in the interim.

To continue to put children and spouses at risk for the sake of "saving" the marriage is tantamount to being complicit in further damage.

ETA: One thing that would probably help would be to stop encouraging young, uneducated, immature men and women (who are essentially unprepared), to marry early and immediately begin a family. A more mature approach to marriage could ease the amount of stress involved.

[Korihor]

It's called eternal progression. God's still progressing, too. Don't judge the poor guy for not dealing with child and sexual abuse in his church, it was his first time. Give God a break.

[moksha]

Abusers are basically frustrated, emotionally immature, cowardly bullies who can't handle the stress that comes with being an adult.

I think they come in well-adjusted flavors as well as all flavors in between. Acting out in an inappropriate manner is a universal problem, not limited the "those" kind of people. People are sexual and will behave in all sorts of manners under the right circumstances. What is needed is a frank discussion in an open and non-judgmental way on how to resist certain temptations that all can be subjected to. It is the hidden and secretive nature of human sexual acting out that needs to be discussed. Hopefully, people who are abusers can see what is going on and get a handle on it. That cannot happen if it cannot be discussed ahead of time. It needs to be approached in a we fashion rather than a you fashion.

Of course, this will never happen, but it is worth talking about.

[Give It Time]

Abusers are basically frustrated, emotionally immature, cowardly bullies who can't handle the stress that comes with being an adult.

I think they come in well-adjusted flavors as well as all flavors in between. Acting out in an inappropriate manner is a universal problem, not limited the "those" kind of people. People are sexual and will behave in all sorts of manners under the right circumstances. What is needed is a frank discussion in an open and non-judgmental way on how to resist certain temptations that all can be subjected to. It is the hidden and secretive nature of human sexual acting out that needs to be discussed. Hopefully, people who are abusers can see what is going on and get a handle on it. That cannot happen if it cannot be discussed ahead of time. It needs to be approached in a we fashion rather than a you fashion.

Of course, this will never happen, but it is worth talking about.

As I read PR's statement I was thinking the same thing. Little anecdote to illustrate.

Starting with when we were dating, my ex and I would have the following exchange that we had for twenty years at various points. The exchange was usually triggered by a news story or television show.

X: Boy, people sure can be mean.
Me: They sure can.
X: Why do you think that is?
Me: [my answer would be one of these] Because they have low self-esteem/hurting and making others hurt/putting other people down so they can feel bigger.
X: No, that's not it.

It finally dawned on me that he never gave his opinion why and that this discussion wasn't framed that way. It was framed in the manner of teacher and student. He had the answer and I wasn't getting it.

Next time the topic came up, it was clear from the context, he was asking the question about us. Why was he mean to us? So, it went like this.

X: Why do you think people are mean?
Me: [Leaning in toward him and fixing him with my gaze] I don't know. You tell me. Why are people mean?
X: Because they're so happy.

It's about five years since that conversation and the best I can make of it is sometimes people are mean because they're sadistic and enjoy watching people suffer (he did laugh at tragic news stories).

Basically, I concur with everyone here, including PR, because people are abusive for those reasons, too.

[Palerider]

Moksha and GIT:

I think I respectfully disagree with what you are describing here.

The type of people you're talking about; the deviant and the sociopath respectively, aren't your garden variety of abuser. They don't need time to "mature". They need to be incarcerated.
Unfortunately many of them are intelligent and crafty enough to stay out of jail because they know and fear the law, not because they want to change their behavior. They aren't "well adjusted" they're just very smart and manipulative.

It is still a matter of emotional maturity in the sense that the sociopath lacks the ability to empathize with the "other's" pain and the deviant cannot put another's needs (for safety, security) ahead of his own desires. For them "it's all about me."

I think you're really talking about sick puppies if I understand what you have described correctly. An exception might, MIGHT be a juvenile as far as secretive sexual behavior but if that continues uncorrected into adulthood, I think the chances of permanent behavioral change diminish greatly.

Severing ties with sociopaths and deviants isn't an unhealthy solution.

As my wife says, "When you argue with a lunatic you enter into their craziness. What you really want to do is take a big step back."

ETA: Looking back at the original church article in the OP I realize this is the more likely kind of abuser being described.

[achilles]

So I read through the site. It seems to be more aspirational than descriptive.

And pardon my francais, but why the hell isn't an FBI background check required for leaders? Why? Is the "power of discernment" and personal recommendations (Oh yeah, _____ is a good guy. He would never hurt anybody) enough?

[Give It Time]

Moksha and GIT:

I think I respectfully disagree with what you are describing here.

The type of people you're talking about; the deviant and the sociopath respectively, aren't your garden variety of abuser. They don't need time to "mature". They need to be incarcerated.
Unfortunately many of them are intelligent and crafty enough to stay out of jail because they know and fear the law, not because they want to change their behavior. They aren't "well adjusted" they're just very smart and manipulative.

It is still a matter of emotional maturity in the sense that the sociopath lacks the ability to empathize with the "other's" pain and the deviant cannot put another's needs (for safety, security) ahead of his own desires. For them "it's all about me."

I think you're really talking about sick puppies if I understand what you have described correctly. An exception might, MIGHT be a juvenile as far as secretive sexual behavior but if that continues uncorrected into adulthood, I think the chances of permanent behavioral change diminish greatly.

Severing ties with sociopaths and deviants isn't an unhealthy solution.

As my wife says, "When you argue with a lunatic you enter into their craziness. What you really want to do is take a big step back."

ETA: Looking back at the original church article in the OP I realize this is the more likely kind of abuser being described.

PR, I tried writing a response, but found my views too complex to convey adequately. I will say that there are many degrees of abusers. Some are just clueless as to their behavior. Some are very serious. I will say I don't like how accepted abuse is in things like twitter feeds and comments sections. This and so much of what our society and religion does not only tells the abuser their behavior is okay, but the right way to do things.

I may write more later if I can distill my thoughts down, but will just leave it at that and watch the thread.