Do LDS leaders recognize Pharisaic tendencies?

[deacon blues]

Do LDS leaders recognize pharisaic tendencies in the LDS church? Which leaders? Which tendencies?

[wtfluff]

Did the Pharisees recognize their own Pharisaic tendencies in themselves?

I don't think so...


Edit: It's also pretty easy for today's LDS leaders to use "scripture" to justify their own self-righteous condescension.

[Korihor]

They might have infinity mirrors in the temple, but there are no mirrors in the COB

[Not Buying It]

Whether or not they recognize Pharisaic tendencies, they certainly encourage them.

[oliver_denom]

Maybe I can provide some insight here.

My in-laws burned a lot of bridges and alienated their families when they converted to Mormonism. They spent their lives arguing with siblings and parents over this choice and could never understand why they were being excluded just because they left the faith of their youth.

My wife and I have left Mormonism and they treat us the same way their families treated them. Why? Because Mormonism is "true".

It's another example of Mormonism's moral relativism and situational ethics. Freedom of religion, respect, and tolerance are only acceptable towards the one true church. God never intended these virtues to be applied to "false" religion. So members can act in ways which would be unacceptable for anyone outside the church.

[2bizE]

If they did, they wouldn't tell anyone.

[moksha]

If they did, they wouldn't tell anyone.

Suspect they are still on the fence about changing the name of the Church Office Building to The Sanhedrin. Kirton McConkie is for the change, but a couple of fellows in the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop accounting department are pointing to the total cost of that name change from printing to stone masonry changes. It might be up to the legal expertise of Elder Oaks and the other lawyers among the General Authorities to give it the final thumbs up or down.

[Palerider]

Modern Pharisees justify their own "wisdom" just as those of ancient times. They thought they were wise in their own eyes. No one could tell them anything.

Luke 7:35

[Just This Guy]

If they did, they wouldn't tell anyone.

Suspect they are still on the fence about changing the name of the Church Office Building to The Sanhedrin.

I like the name: "Salt Lake Sanhedrin."

[deacon blues]

Modern Pharisees justify their own "wisdom" just as those of ancient times. They thought they were wise in their own eyes. No one could tell them anything.

Luke 7:35

John 9:41 ....now that you claim you can see your guilt remains.

[moksha]

While observing the battle between the law and the spirit, Jesus thought the spirit should win. However, Jesus did not have a multi-national corporation to run or payrolls to meet.

[Corsair]

I am troubled by the double standard on display within different parts of the LDS church in this regard. New Testament classes in both seminary and Sunday School emphasize the wickedness of Pharisees and Saducees in their persecution of Jesus Christ. Jewish leaders lacked prophetic inspiration and held to the strained details of Mosaic law. Along comes Jesus of Nazareth heroically upsetting their world with heretical commandments like "Love One Another".

The modern contrast in this is most on display in the Honor Code Offices of BYU schools in Provo, Idaho, and Hawaii. The strict rules of dress, grooming, and activity are clearly on display and represent a frightening view of how the LDS church would operate if it actually had temporal control over the lives of Mormons. Mission rules for young missionaries are similarly difficult and I am continually astonished at how leadership cannot understand the rising tide of missionaries who wash out for emotional problems.

It all comes down to the social shaming threatened by losing your temple recommend. BYU can affect the education and future employment of their students through the onerous restrictions of the ecclesiastic endorsement. I am in favor of any private group establishing their standards for membership, but BYU, Missions, and even church employment take this to a new level.

Hugh Nibley recognized the Pharisaic nature of BYU rules and LDS culture. Current LDS leadership seems to have learned the wrong lesson from him. Saints are not bound together by a devotion to Jesus Christ. Instead, Mormons are bound together by the cultural rules arising from the BYU Honor Code and modesty rules. First century Judean Pharisees would understand.

[deacon blues]

I am troubled by the double standard on display within different parts of the LDS church in this regard. New Testament classes in both seminary and Sunday School emphasize the wickedness of Pharisees and Saducees in their persecution of Jesus Christ. Jewish leaders lacked prophetic inspiration and held to the strained details of Mosaic law. Along comes Jesus of Nazareth heroically upsetting their world with heretical commandments like "Love One Another".

The modern contrast in this is most on display in the Honor Code Offices of BYU schools in Provo, Idaho, and Hawaii. The strict rules of dress, grooming, and activity are clearly on display and represent a frightening view of how the LDS church would operate if it actually had temporal control over the lives of Mormons. Mission rules for young missionaries are similarly difficult and I am continually astonished at how leadership cannot understand the rising tide of missionaries who wash out for emotional problems.

It all comes down to the social shaming threatened by losing your temple recommend. BYU can affect the education and future employment of their students through the onerous restrictions of the ecclesiastic endorsement. I am in favor of any private group establishing their standards for membership, but BYU, Missions, and even church employment take this to a new level.

Hugh Nibley recognized the Pharisaic nature of BYU rules and LDS culture. Current LDS leadership seems to have learned the wrong lesson from him. Saints are not bound together by a devotion to Jesus Christ. Instead, Mormons are bound together by the cultural rules arising from the BYU Honor Code and modesty rules. First century Judean Pharisees would understand.

Darn well put. Thanks for reminding me that Nibley touched on this subject.

[1smartdodog]

When it's your rules it is what God wants. When someone else makes rules they are wicked

I have often thought church leaders are crazy not to see the parallels but then they miss a lot of stuff

[Corsair]

When it's your rules it is what God wants. When someone else makes rules they are wicked

I have often thought church leaders are crazy not to see the parallels but then they miss a lot of stuff

In addition, there is no feedback process to let leaders know that there are problems on the local level. Take something as simple as the one year civil marriage penalty in the United States and Canada. Being married in a civil ceremony is considered borderline scandalous in LDS culture. Putting off a temple sealing for any reason at all implies deep moral infractions. On the other hand, the normal process of excluding non-members and children from a sealing ceremony drives far too many rifts within families. I have a cousin who paid for her daughter's temple wedding but was still prevented from attending the ceremony due to her own apostasy. She paid for the reception and virtually all other expenses but waited on the steps of the Mesa temple with the children and the unworthy.

Removing the one year marriage penalty would go a long way to heal these kinds of rifts. Let a couple get married then go do the sealing the next day. Most LDS children have literally never attended a wedding. Their experience is limited to the party atmosphere of the reception and ironically they have never experienced the solemnity of an actual wedding. This should be a shared understanding from Christianity and western civilization at large. Instead, the first experience of a wedding for Mormon kids usually comes from movies like "The Little Mermaid". Even then, there is still the passive aggressive attitude from LDS culture that it's not in a temple so it's not truly a "real" wedding.

But the LDS church dismisses any concern over exclusion of non-members from attending the weddig of a convert son or daughter through the condescending non-explanation of how spiritual and important a sealing should be. They just can't leave it up to those lame civil authorities or to a random Christian pastor to solemnize the love of two people. There is never an instance when the average member can talk to an LDS leader in a public forum and have their comments honored. Griping about the actions or policies of a U.S. president is an admirable civic duty. Griping about any action or policy of the LDS church is a heretical embarrassment.

[deacon blues]

I have sometimes wondered if Jesus wasn't too hard on the Pharisees. Of course we get the gospel writers viewpoints, which were likely tainted by years of conflict between the Christians and the Pharisees, and may show Jesus being more harsh than he really was. Still, when Jesus spoke about how Pharisees worried more about appearances than the "inner vessel" (Matt. 23:26), or gave the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican, (Luke 18) it seems as if he was warning leaders about the very minutiae they often seem to obsess about today: ear piercings, bare shoulders, tithing (yes, in Luke 18 tithing is definitely de-emphasized), meeting attendance percentages, etc.

Sadly, LDS don't seem to read the New Testament as much as other scriptures.

Corsairs point about children missing wedding ceremonies is right on. Heck, who should be more worthy than young children (say 6-12) to enter the temple???????
And the church leaders need feedback. All they usually get is fawning adulation. As Elder Uctdorf, quoting Elder Faust, said "be thankful for this (adulation) but don't inhale."

[Give It Time]

I think they know about it and see it as beneficial and not just beneficial for them. I used to defend it this way. In acting, there are two basic methods, outer and inner. The inner is the much lampooned finding an internal motivation within yourself to bring emotional truth and authenticity to your performance. The other is an outward, going through the motions, repeating the script by rote until the internal motivation awakens within the actor. My personal method was to rely on the internal, but where I couldn't find or create an experience to match, I would use the external. I can testify to you that it works and it's quite an epiphany when it does.

The way I believe the church sees it is all those people that are checking off all those boxes and still showing a very un-Christ-like heart simply haven't been going through the motions long enough to have that epiphany. I used to believe this. If I just held out long enough my husband would change.

I have since learned those pharasaical requirements make an excellent mask and costume to cover someone's dark heart or disbelief. I put that "or" in bold, because the two aren't interchangeable. If you are a faithful lurker, don't you dare conflate the two. Just don't. What is the difference between my old understanding and new? Basically I ate the fruit of knowledge of good and evil and opened my eyes. I put the choice of opening my eyes in there, because I wanted to know what I needed to know to not hurt anymore. I've known people who went through similar to what I experienced and still chose to remain wilfully blind.

There's quite a famous anecdote that may or may not be true that explains perfectly the two schools of acting.

http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ulti ... 000474;p=1

[no1saint]

Pharasetic perhaps? adj. Using dogma and established Utah based church cultural norms to reinforce outdated world views to control the masses and sustain control over their emotional, mental, spiritual and financial wellbeing.

They exist in a self serving and self justifying loop of authority created by preceding and sustained by succeeding leaders. The Church Culture/Dogma vs. Scripture based doctrine and the teachings of Christ will always be a debate had in the margins of Mormonism. Self reflection must be difficult when President Newsroom and the sycophants at the COB are constantly trumping your worldview to the members as being divinely inspired.

[Hagoth]

While observing the battle between the law and the spirit, Jesus thought the spirit should win. However, Jesus did not have a multi-national corporation to run or payrolls to meet.

And look where THAT got him.