Dad confronts me about FC
- Culper Jr.
- Posts: 292
- Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:28 pm
Dad confronts me about FC
Well, I thought I was flying below the radar pretty well. I visited my parents this weekend and when I was alone with my dad at one point he says he's worried about me, and my DW is as well. It really caught me off guard and I HATE discussing this stuff when I'm not prepared. I don't want to tear down someone's closely held beliefs unless they make the choice to want to know. On the other hand, if someone pushes me about what I believe I'll push back. If I'm not prepared it can come out pretty harsh.
It continues to amaze me how much longtime members of the church DON'T know about the history of the church even though now all of this information is easily available on the internet, and how they just suck in anything the leaders say without any scrutiny. At one point in the discussion, he conceded that polygamy (my biggest issue) did bother him at one time. He made what I thought was a reference to JS's polyandry, but he was actually talking about JS's "test" of Heber C. Kimball in asking Heber to give him Vilate. I made an offhand comment about all of the men's wives he married and he was like, "huh??" "Yeah Dad, he married a bunch of other men's wives for real, not as a test. Well, except for Vilate, with that one he just married her fourteen year old daughter instead." "That's terrible," he says. "Yes!! That's my problem!" He then said I needed to stick to church approved sources like he does. I replied, "Is lds.org 'approved' enough for you?" Then some other family came in and it ended on that.
One good thing that came of it was the discussion with DW later. She swears she didn't put him up to it so I let it go. I then vented to her about the whole thing. I talked about how much I resented the implication that I am betraying the church, or that I want to sin or something. "Does he really think I am enjoying this!! I hate this, and it would be so much easier to just go along with it. But I cannot say that something is true that is not any more than I can look at that wall and say it is blue when I know it is white." I can tell DW has been stressed about my FC, and has implied many of the same things my dad did. By venting about him, it wasn't like I was attacking her but I was able to say stuff that needed to be addressed without her feeling threatened. Since this conversation, she doesn't seem nearly as worried or stressed about the whole FC.
Of course, Dad has a history of "helping" a little too much, so I am bracing for what comes next.
It continues to amaze me how much longtime members of the church DON'T know about the history of the church even though now all of this information is easily available on the internet, and how they just suck in anything the leaders say without any scrutiny. At one point in the discussion, he conceded that polygamy (my biggest issue) did bother him at one time. He made what I thought was a reference to JS's polyandry, but he was actually talking about JS's "test" of Heber C. Kimball in asking Heber to give him Vilate. I made an offhand comment about all of the men's wives he married and he was like, "huh??" "Yeah Dad, he married a bunch of other men's wives for real, not as a test. Well, except for Vilate, with that one he just married her fourteen year old daughter instead." "That's terrible," he says. "Yes!! That's my problem!" He then said I needed to stick to church approved sources like he does. I replied, "Is lds.org 'approved' enough for you?" Then some other family came in and it ended on that.
One good thing that came of it was the discussion with DW later. She swears she didn't put him up to it so I let it go. I then vented to her about the whole thing. I talked about how much I resented the implication that I am betraying the church, or that I want to sin or something. "Does he really think I am enjoying this!! I hate this, and it would be so much easier to just go along with it. But I cannot say that something is true that is not any more than I can look at that wall and say it is blue when I know it is white." I can tell DW has been stressed about my FC, and has implied many of the same things my dad did. By venting about him, it wasn't like I was attacking her but I was able to say stuff that needed to be addressed without her feeling threatened. Since this conversation, she doesn't seem nearly as worried or stressed about the whole FC.
Of course, Dad has a history of "helping" a little too much, so I am bracing for what comes next.
- SunbeltRed
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:26 pm
Re: Dad confronts me about FC
I'm still waiting for this to happen. I'm sure it will be relatively soon, and perhaps I may facilitate the discussion so it can be on my own terms.
But I dread it. My dad is very well read, knows and uses much of the apologetics in regards to the church, so I already know there won't be much point in bringing up or discussing historical issues. I think I will have to keep it high level and personal to me.
Good luck on the next steps with DW and your dad.
But I dread it. My dad is very well read, knows and uses much of the apologetics in regards to the church, so I already know there won't be much point in bringing up or discussing historical issues. I think I will have to keep it high level and personal to me.
Good luck on the next steps with DW and your dad.
Re: Dad confronts me about FC
I welcome these conversations, even if caught off guard. I'm nice but I don't pull punches. Make them defend themselves instead of being on the offensive. They quickly learn to be prepared and/or leave it alone.
I have zero problem with the little social sayings such as "we are blessed, etc" that's their culture and I respect it. I want them to be comfortable on my home, and that means letting them do what they do.
But if it gets preachy....
I have zero problem with the little social sayings such as "we are blessed, etc" that's their culture and I respect it. I want them to be comfortable on my home, and that means letting them do what they do.
But if it gets preachy....
Reading can severely damage your ignorance.
- trophywife26.2
- Posts: 247
- Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:50 pm
Re: Dad confronts me about FC
I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I hate these conversations. I think that it was good for your DW to hear you vent about your dad though and see the experience with new eyes. Hope nothing more comes of it as far as the "help" you mentioned your dad likes to give.
Even if it's something disappointing, it's still better to know the truth. Because people can deal with disappointment. And once they've done that, they can feel that they have really grown. And that can be such a good feeling. -Fred Rogers
Re: Dad confronts me about FC
You seem to have handled it all pretty well considering the ambush. It he does come back with his 2nd wave hit him with the essays. This might be a good start for discussion since he is so stuck on "approved" literature. Please return and report.
"Every event that has taken place in this universe has led you to this moment.
... The real question is, what will you do with this moment?" - Unknown
"Never arrive @ a point where you know everything - Korihor57
... The real question is, what will you do with this moment?" - Unknown
"Never arrive @ a point where you know everything - Korihor57
- Silver Girl
- Posts: 375
- Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:31 am
Re: Dad confronts me about FC
I know it's stressful, but as a Resigned Observer, I am impressed at how you handled it and that some important information surfaced. It sounds like your dad was inoculated somewhere to believe the Heber thing was to 'test his faith,' but nothing happened. I hope your dad was gut-punched with the new information about the 14-year-old victim (and all the others he may learn about) - and I hope he reads the essays on the church site - some people still think they're fake and not of the church.
Have you considered sending him a link to the Nauvoo essay? We all know they're hard to find, and even when you find them, the church has hidden that one below additional clicks.
Have you considered sending him a link to the Nauvoo essay? We all know they're hard to find, and even when you find them, the church has hidden that one below additional clicks.
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Silver Girl is sailing into the future. She is no longer scared.
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Silver Girl is sailing into the future. She is no longer scared.
- Vlad the Emailer
- Posts: 169
- Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:03 pm
- Location: Lower Midwest
Re: Dad confronts me about FC
Exactly. I would say, "dad, if you want to have this discussion I suggest you go to lds.org and read ALL the essays first. The parts the church admits to will be a good starting point".SeeNoEvil wrote:You seem to have handled it all pretty well considering the ambush. It he does come back with his 2nd wave hit him with the essays. This might be a good start for discussion since he is so stuck on "approved" literature. Please return and report.
The only thing more incomprehensible than people that don't know and don't want to know, are those that do know and insist on rationalizing and excusing it all. Makes me want to say something like "Dad, it is what it is and it isn't what it isn't. Put on your big boy pants and deal with it!!"My dad is very well read, knows and uses much of the apologetics in regards to the church, so I already know there won't be much point in bringing up or discussing historical issues.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest. - Anonymous
Say what you want about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying. - Kurt Vonnegut
Say what you want about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying. - Kurt Vonnegut
Re: Dad confronts me about FC
This still bothers me to this day. When you leave or you find information that is unflattering to the church, people assume that by learning it or having an issue with you are betraying the church.I talked about how much I resented the implication that I am betraying the church
Re: Dad confronts me about FC
This was mentioned elsewhere on some website I might frequent:document wrote:This still bothers me to this day. When you leave or you find information that is unflattering to the church, people assume that by learning it or having an issue with you are betraying the church.I talked about how much I resented the implication that I am betraying the church
It's not my responsibility to protect the church's "secrets".
If anyone has been betrayed, it's members (and former members) who dedicate(d) their lives to the lies and half truth's that the church sells.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus
IDKSAF -RubinHighlander
Gave up who I am for who you wanted me to be...
IDKSAF -RubinHighlander
Gave up who I am for who you wanted me to be...
Re: Dad confronts me about FC
If and when your Dad wants to talk, my advice is to take one topic at a time (rather than a shotgun approach regarding historical issues). Unless you don't want to do that or even want to discuss issues with him. I'd say, "Ok, let's look at the issue of polygamy and polyandry." and discuss that before you move onto the numerous first vision issues, for example. Come here for help and post any questions you have in the "Doctrinal Discussion" forum as there are many here who are very familiar with all of the standard apologetic tactics and justifications for what took place. Believe me there are responses for each one of them and details that are always left out of their arguments.SunbeltRed wrote:I'm still waiting for this to happen. I'm sure it will be relatively soon, and perhaps I may facilitate the discussion so it can be on my own terms.
But I dread it. My dad is very well read, knows and uses much of the apologetics in regards to the church, so I already know there won't be much point in bringing up or discussing historical issues. I think I will have to keep it high level and personal to me.
And, Culper, Jr., I think you handled the situation really well. Having something like that just sprung on you is pretty difficult and you held your own. It's also great that you were able to talk to your wife like you did about it. If your Dad brings it up again, I'd suggest doing what I wrote above to SunbeltRed (take one topic at a time and come here for help if you need it ).
"There came a time when the desire to know the truth about the church became stronger than the desire to know the church was true."
Re: Dad confronts me about FC
That sentiment amuses and frustrates me these days. It's something that only fails to raise alarm bells to someone who is a "true believer" of whatever organization or philosophy that is involved. If you insisted he needed to only read Storm Front approved sources about the Holocaust he'd likely scoff (at least I hope he would). To be fair only turning to sources that confirm their biases and beliefs is something that people do subconsciously on many topics, but when stated out-loud as the ideal, as the proper course of action, the absurdity and danger of it all is made baldly apparent.Culper Jr. wrote: He then said I needed to stick to church approved sources like he does.
Another thing that gets thrown around in the church is that you don't go to a Chevy dealer to learn about Fords, a cliche that only gets tossed around when it implies you should go to the church for information. You rarely see it tossed around to recommend you ask exmormons/NOMs/Inactives what they believe and why they left/stepped back. The Chevy dealer that is the church has plenty to say about the motivations of exmormons/NOMs/Inactivesand it's a rare TBM, in my experience, that will ask an exmormon why they left and take them at their word rather than imputing the motivations taught them by the church.
Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.
Re: Dad confronts me about FC
The Ford, Chevy analogy never gets taken to it's logical conclusion, which is that you don't just go to a Ford dealer to learn about Fords either. You read Consumer Reports and talk to former Ford owners, especially the ones who had a bad experience.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Re: Dad confronts me about FC
Oh wow...yes. That is so true. The last person I'd trust would be a car salesman talking about the exact car he's trying to sellHagoth wrote:The Ford, Chevy analogy never gets taken to it's logical conclusion, which is that you don't just go to a Ford dealer to learn about Fords either. You read Consumer Reports and talk to former Ford owners, especially the ones who had a bad experience.
"There came a time when the desire to know the truth about the church became stronger than the desire to know the church was true."
- Fifi de la Vergne
- Posts: 288
- Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:56 am
Re: Dad confronts me about FC
I often wonder how this analogy is allowed to stand! Before you buy anything these days you go online and read the reviews both good and bad (well, I do & most people I know).AllieOop wrote:Oh wow...yes. That is so true. The last person I'd trust would be a car salesman talking about the exact car he's trying to sellHagoth wrote:The Ford, Chevy analogy never gets taken to it's logical conclusion, which is that you don't just go to a Ford dealer to learn about Fords either. You read Consumer Reports and talk to former Ford owners, especially the ones who had a bad experience.
Joy is the emotional expression of the courageous Yes to one's own true being.
Re: Dad confronts me about FC
Yes...curse that darn GoogleFifi de la Vergne wrote:I often wonder how this analogy is allowed to stand! Before you buy anything these days you go online and read the reviews both good and bad (well, I do & most people I know).AllieOop wrote:Oh wow...yes. That is so true. The last person I'd trust would be a car salesman talking about the exact car he's trying to sellHagoth wrote:The Ford, Chevy analogy never gets taken to it's logical conclusion, which is that you don't just go to a Ford dealer to learn about Fords either. You read Consumer Reports and talk to former Ford owners, especially the ones who had a bad experience.
"There came a time when the desire to know the truth about the church became stronger than the desire to know the church was true."
- LostMormon
- Posts: 123
- Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:38 am
Re: Dad confronts me about FC
lol, that reminds me of a commercial. this is not actually the one I was thinking of, but it's similar. "of course I don't believe you, we're used car salesmen"AllieOop wrote:Oh wow...yes. That is so true. The last person I'd trust would be a car salesman talking about the exact car he's trying to sellHagoth wrote:The Ford, Chevy analogy never gets taken to it's logical conclusion, which is that you don't just go to a Ford dealer to learn about Fords either. You read Consumer Reports and talk to former Ford owners, especially the ones who had a bad experience.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxDP1A80vEA
Re: Dad confronts me about FC
If someone was to confront me about Fort Collins, I might reply "Go Rams!" if I thought they were a Colorado State fan. Otherwise, what is meant by FC?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha
-- Moksha
Re: Dad confronts me about FC
Could be Faith Crisis. Could be Funky Chicken.moksha wrote:If someone was to confront me about Fort Collins, I might reply "Go Rams!" if I thought they were a Colorado State fan. Otherwise, what is meant by FC?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Re: Dad confronts me about FC
It sounds like you did pretty well for yourself even without a lack of preparation. Nice job.
Always been the good kid, but I wanted to know more, and to find and test truth.
- Culper Jr.
- Posts: 292
- Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:28 pm
Re: Dad confronts me about FC
lol, sorry.. FC= faith crisis. Funky Chicken would be more something a bishop would confront a person with.Hagoth wrote:f someone was to confront me about Fort Collins, I might reply "Go Rams!" if I thought they were a Colorado State fan. Otherwise, what is meant by FC?
Could be Faith Crisis. Could be Funky Chicken.