Question for the group about when to leave

[Rob4Hope]

First of all, I agree with shadow. She doesn't want to be overweight. There is a lot behind this and many could write for a long time, but I can tell you obese people don't want to be. Not only does it look bad, but it feels bad. It's debilitating. It's frustrating.

Give it time...I like this, and I appreciate it. In my thread above, the intent (which must not be clear) is when you have a supportive partner, and the help and course corrections are not changed.

If your spouse would have been supportive, perhaps you would find yourself in a different place. I can only hope.

But I did hit on big number items above. Weight seems to have struck a nerve. I could have just as easily hit on the Credit Card bill thing I mentioned above.

When I was married, my then wife began to gain weight. I asked her about it. She told me in so many words she could do whatever the h3ll she wanted, and I could shut the h3ll up. After all, I was supposed to love her like "jesus did". Though we did divorce, it wasn't over weight.

Now look at this people. Just look at this. Was I wrong for asking about her weight?

I know someone who didn't brush his teeth. They were rotting in his face. His wife was disgusted...utterly disgusted. It spilled over into their bedroom in a major way. Should she just NOT ask about that?...and just love him like "jesus did?"

I say no. I say how a partner cares for themselves IN A SUPPORTIVE MARRIAGE matters.

PS. GIT...I need to read through your thread more closely. I went pretty fast...so if missed anything, I will revise here.

[shadow]

I've been on NOM for over 5 years. It has changed over time, but in its current state, threads in the Support page often touch on marital discord. Typically, NOMmers are concerned with how their spouse will respond to a change in belief and practice. It's really a question of priorities and power. How many of us still attend church, live the wow, pay tithing, wear garments, etc. because of a spouse...because we are committed to a marriage with a spouse who is more concerned with an orthodox religion than they are with a truly equitable and supportive marriage. On that same token, I wonder how many stick with us for the same reasons expressed in the original post despite our variance from orthodoxy. I mean, to them, we aren't really committed to our eternal marriage.

Have we been too influenced by the thinking in the original post, just with different specifics, and stick around too long?

Thank you R4H for clarifying. I also don't mean to imply that physical attraction isn't important. It is. I think I was pushing back against it as an isolated reason for divorce. In your follow up, it really is an issue of mutual respect and care.

[shadow]

Marriage is complicated.

[Rob4Hope]

Thank you R4H for clarifying. I also don't mean to imply that physical attraction isn't important. It is. I think I was pushing back against it as an isolated reason for divorce. In your follow up, it really is an issue of mutual respect and care.

We are good. Totally. I take NOM with a grain of salt,...and more often than not I do change my position. I have no problem whatsoever doing that. I personally (and this is for me only) consider that my "learning" method.

Anyway....

Somewhere in the back of my mind I have this "ideal" marriage idea--what I wish it would have been like for me. By golly,..that ideal is in there still, and it will not die, nor do I want it to die.

In mutually supportive marriages (and I sure wish I had more role-models of this), I think people can talk about what is really going on. Sex, Money, Kids, Free Time: these seem to be the big ones that rip marriages apart. In the original post, I hit on 2 things associated with sex: just plain sex, and physical appearance. And, the next big one was the money one. I chose well...this has been a VERY active thread today...

I like what GIT said above because its a polar opposite of what ideal is (and I'm not poking you GIT. You disclosed some things and your courage is very respected by me). But it gives an example at least of how things can spiral when abuse happens. It fosters problems.

In my ideal mental picture, I see significant divergence because no model is perfect; however, healthy sex, healthy money management, healthy parenting, and healthy use of time are essentials IMHO. And, with regards to healthy sex, two people are able to work together to support each other and foster good health, which promotes not only good sex, but good looks. Healthy money would probably mean a level or transparency,...etc.

I've had so many examples in my life of unhealthy, its hard to even recognize what is proper. But,...if two people have their problems, but they are working on it TOGETHER and refuse to quit...that is hopeful.

And HOPE matters to Rob4HOPE!

[Give It Time]

Thanks for clarifying.

No worries.

Not a problem with the weight thing.

I don't like what your wife said. However, it is her body, her choice. I'm not sure, but I sense some attitude from her in your retelling. Didn't like the attitude.

I know one thing that has given me a lot of peace in relationships is simply accepting people as they are. Basically, it's the serenity prayer: changing the things you can (you), accepting the things you cannot change (other people) and the wisdom to know the difference.

I did tell me ex I was concerned about his abuse and that it would need to change. That one's a little different. He was putting one of our children in danger. So, when he said he wouldn't change, it was deal breaker in that instance.

A nice thing about choosing not to marry, again, is I don't have to weigh these questions in my mind. On the flip side, I'm going to have to figure out how to go to weddings in the most fabulous way.

[Rob4Hope]

On the flip side, I'm going to have to figure out how to go to weddings in the most fabulous way.

Rock on Girl!!!!


OK...next series of questions associated with this thread, and let me state at the outset, I am not clear on this one: this one is VERY subjective and I have mixed feelings both directions.

When you have marital problems and things are on the rocks, do you stay together for the kids? Now that is obviously a broad question that many people have written whole books on, including case studies and so forth. But, if you add the LDS theology, especially for those who were TBM or still are (perhaps at least one partner), it adds a whole new dimension.

All the sudden things like SWK statements about marriage come into being.

The man I mentioned above who hasn't been with his wife for 2 years (and it is her choice--she just has decided that is how it is)...well, he is staying for the kids. He has given up on romance and seriously considers his wife a flatmate ONLY. He is there for the kids, but is miserable inside (though he tries to hide it).

Comments, especially with the LDS twist?

[Give It Time]

On the flip side, I'm going to have to figure out how to go to weddings in the most fabulous way.

Rock on Girl!!!!


OK...next series of questions associated with this thread, and let me state at the outset, I am not clear on this one: this one is VERY subjective and I have mixed feelings both directions.

When you have marital problems and things are on the rocks, do you stay together for the kids? Now that is obviously a broad question that many people have written whole books on, including case studies and so forth. But, if you add the LDS theology, especially for those who were TBM or still are (perhaps at least one partner), it adds a whole new dimension.

All the sudden things like SWK statements about marriage come into being.

The man I mentioned above who hasn't been with his wife for 2 years (and it is her choice--she just has decided that is how it is)...well, he is staying for the kids. He has given up on romance and seriously considers his wife a flatmate ONLY. He is there for the kids, but is miserable inside (though he tries to hide it).

Comments, especially with the LDS twist?

Staying for the kids? Good points and bad points.

Good
It's easier for both parents
Kids get to participate in more extra-curricular activities
One household is cheaper than two
Attending church is easier. You feel like you fit in.

Bad
In my case, abuse
In general, I think this sets a terrible example for the children--my bishop actually advocated our living separate lives under the same roof. In other words, a total sham marriage. I told the bishop my husband would seek extra-marital relationships and it wouldn't be out of the question for us all to be having breakfast together. My bishop was completely unphased by this. Thought it was fine. Remember, I was putting out regularly for my ex, at this time.

I have been saying I'm jaded on marriage. I've recently realized that isn't true. I believe very strongly in marriage. I believe, very much, in two people loving, respecting, supporting each other and providing such a home for growing children. I believe, very much, in that and hold it sacred. It's we human beings and our ability to pull that off where I'm having trouble reconciling.

Bottom line, it's up to your friend.

[Rob4Hope]

Bottom line, it's up to your friend.

Oh...he's in. I just used him as an example because I know enough of the situation, and him, to know he is miserable. Every 3-6 months he comes up for air and we have a long talk. Years ago he wondered if he were crazy, so he marked on a calendar a code word when they had marital relations. It was about 1 time a month, which became 1 time every other month...and now its been 2 years.

The thing that hurts now is she will make a sandwich for a friend...but he hasn't seen a sandwich in 6 months. He is there to help with the kids, do the shopping, keep the house up, help with laundry, and so forth.

What a marriage....but he is willing to take the hit for the kids.

Perhaps this is loving her and giving himself to her like Jesus did for the church. According to LDS theology, Jesus took the hit. In my mind, this man is taking the HIT for this marriage.

She finds her happiness in the kids. They are her life.

[Give It Time]

Bottom line, it's up to your friend.

Oh...he's in. I just used him as an example because I know enough of the situation, and him, to know he is miserable. Every 3-6 months he comes up for air and we have a long talk. Years ago he wondered if he were crazy, so he marked on a calendar a code word when they had marital relations. It was about 1 time a month, which became 1 time every other month...and now its been 2 years.

The thing that hurts now is she will make a sandwich for a friend...but he hasn't seen a sandwich in 6 months. He is there to help with the kids, do the shopping, keep the house up, help with laundry, and so forth.

What a marriage....but he is willing to take the hit for the kids.

Perhaps this is loving her and giving himself to her like Jesus did for the church. According to LDS theology, Jesus took the hit. In my mind, this man is taking the HIT for this marriage.

She finds her happiness in the kids. They are her life.

So, your friend's wife, I put in the territory of cruel. I'm just curious what in heaven's name is her reasoning, because damn...

I read, recently, that not all conflict is 50-50. In fact when it gets into the territory of cruelty, it can be 70-30 or 100-0, with the abuser being the more culpable one. However, I'm in the camp of no one should be culpable. Yes, I know, imperfect people. Yada, yada, yada, but I think we all excuse an awful lot of behavior we could have avoided, had we put forth some effort.

Very sorry for his situation.

[Red Ryder]

Perhaps a bad marriage and the church have something in common. Some people are just too lazy to leave or are too afraid to make a big life change. So they stay for the kids. They stay for the nourishing and strengthening doughnuts!

[Rob4Hope]

GIT,....he and I have talked for hours about what we think may or may not be her reasons. Part of what we think is this:

1. She believes sex is completely a voluntary, non required thing in marriage and is optional.
2. She believes that love and sex do not go together; just because you are in love doesn't mean sex is part of that.
3. She believes that the children are her priority.
4. She believe that full intercourse where part A and B meet is the ONLY form of legitimate sex. Everything that involves hands or mouth is sinful. This is actually inline with teaching of SWK and HBL--there is only one form of sex, and touching your partner with your hands, in her extreme, is consider masterbation and wrong. So, there is no physical touch of those areas. That is wrong.
4. And, because of the above choices, the idea of sex doesn't even cross her mind. Its non-exitent.

Have you ever read the history of Amy Brown Lyman?...interesting stuff here as well.


Anyway...this is his situation, and he has chosen, for the sake of the kids, to remain in the relationship.

[Grace2Daisy]

It’s a myth that people or relationships don’t change. In fact, it’s inevitable. Relationships go through different developmental stages and situations, such as job loss, health problems, financial issues, family / religious conflict or even just becoming a "different" person that the one who was courted. So it’s natural for changes to occur.

When I took a psychology class in college I was shown the Johari Window which was one of my biggest education take-aways. The Johari Window is a method to help people better understand relationships, as well as a better understanding of yourself.

This link explains the concept better than I can: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johari_window

In short the concept says there four frames in the window:
Frame 1 is the part of ourselves that we see and others see
Frame 2 is the aspects that others see but we are not aware of
Frame 3 is our private space, which we know but keep hiding from others
Frame 4 is the most mysterious room in that the unconscious or subconscious part of us is seen by neither ourselves nor others

The struggle many have with a relation ship is Frames 3 & 4. It is these two frames wherein relationships begin to crumble. It is NOT unusual for a newly married couple to discover, that the person they are married to . . . is NOT the same person that they knew, through the courtship. This is especially an issue when you have only dated a few weeks (see BYU and BYUI). My son works for BYUI and says the biggest kept secret there are the number of annulments that occur.

I was married in the temple, and I was 20 and she was a few months before her 19th birthday (ok. . . . she was 18). Literally a couple of months into our marriage I realized that the Johari Window Frame number 3 was opening up because I was now seeing things about her I did not know in our courtship. Because of a quick pregnancy I decided I might be able to change her (warning. . . . warning), and I tried for 15 years. The "temple marriage" gave her license to be a person totally different than the person I thought I was marrying.

Over 14 years it became clear to me, as Frame number 3 became wider and wider, there was no way to change her to "fit" what I believed would allow us to remain together. I began marriage counseling with an LDS member (she was not affiliated with the church), and I asked my spouse to attend as well. We met with the counselor separately and my wife refused to go back a second time, I continued for 14 months eventually deciding our marriage needed to end.

My bishop and SP both told me I was making a huge mistake and I would not be happy with a divorce. The interesting thing is our close friends who knew us both were "privately" telling me I was doing the right thing. We did divorce, I remarried and have been very, very happily married for 35 years. My ex-wife is on her seventh (yeah you read that right) marriage. My only regret is not leaving earlier, but I tried to make it work for our children, who are now grown and have told me they remain amazed I stayed with her as long as I did.

She changed (in my view) and did not want to change (my opinion) due to our temple convents.

[Rob4Hope]

It’s a myth that people or relationships don’t change. In fact, it’s inevitable. Relationships go through different developmental stages and situations, such as job loss, health problems, financial issues, family / religious conflict or even just becoming a "different" person that the one who was courted. So it’s natural for changes to occur.

When I took a psychology class in college I was shown the Johari Window which was one of my biggest education take-aways. The Johari Window is a method to help people better understand relationships, as well as a better understanding of yourself.

This link explains the concept better than I can: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johari_window

In short the concept says there four frames in the window:
Frame 1 is the part of ourselves that we see and others see
Frame 2 is the aspects that others see but we are not aware of
Frame 3 is our private space, which we know but keep hiding from others
Frame 4 is the most mysterious room in that the unconscious or subconscious part of us is seen by neither ourselves nor others

The struggle many have with a relation ship is Frames 3 & 4. It is these two frames wherein relationships begin to crumble. It is NOT unusual for a newly married couple to discover, that the person they are married to . . . is NOT the same person that they knew, through the courtship. This is especially an issue when you have only dated a few weeks (see BYU and BYUI). My son works for BYUI and says the biggest kept secret there are the number of annulments that occur.

I was married in the temple, and I was 20 and she was a few months before her 19th birthday (ok. . . . she was 18). Literally a couple of months into our marriage I realized that the Johari Window Frame number 3 was opening up because I was now seeing things about her I did not know in our courtship. Because of a quick pregnancy I decided I might be able to change her (warning. . . . warning), and I tried for 15 years. The "temple marriage" gave her license to be a person totally different than the person I thought I was marrying.

Over 14 years it became clear to me, as Frame number 3 became wider and wider, there was no way to change her to "fit" what I believed would allow us to remain together. I began marriage counseling with an LDS member (she was not affiliated with the church), and I asked my spouse to attend as well. We met with the counselor separately and my wife refused to go back a second time, I continued for 14 months eventually deciding our marriage needed to end.

My bishop and SP both told me I was making a huge mistake and I would not be happy with a divorce. The interesting thing is our close friends who knew us both were "privately" telling me I was doing the right thing. We did divorce, I remarried and have been very, very happily married for 35 years. My ex-wife is on her seventh (yeah you read that right) marriage. My only regret is not leaving earlier, but I tried to make it work for our children, who are now grown and have told me they remain amazed I stayed with her as long as I did.

She changed (in my view) and did not want to change (my opinion) due to our temple convents.

Cool post mate. I'm sorry you had those hard years and glad you had some good ones...I'm picking up what your putting down here.

I can relate to a large degree with what you've said. I stayed in my marriage a lot longer than I should as well: I was terrified, because of LDS teachings of divorce. I had the hell-fire-and-brimstone of Spencer Kimball running through my mind...

I recognize it was my choice to believe SWK and allow him that power, but I did. I was mind-controlled if there ever was someone, and I had double-binds controlling me in ways that I am amazed at. I really am flabbergasted the mental controls I had working on me.

Anyway,...I resonate with your post here...

[Give It Time]

GIT,....he and I have talked for hours about what we think may or may not be her reasons. Part of what we think is this:

1. She believes sex is completely a voluntary, non required thing in marriage and is optional.
2. She believes that love and sex do not go together; just because you are in love doesn't mean sex is part of that.
3. She believes that the children are her priority.
4. She believe that full intercourse where part A and B meet is the ONLY form of legitimate sex. Everything that involves hands or mouth is sinful. This is actually inline with teaching of SWK and HBL--there is only one form of sex, and touching your partner with your hands, in her extreme, is consider masterbation and wrong. So, there is no physical touch of those areas. That is wrong.
4. And, because of the above choices, the idea of sex doesn't even cross her mind. Its non-exitent.

Have you ever read the history of Amy Brown Lyman?...interesting stuff here as well.


Anyway...this is his situation, and he has chosen, for the sake of the kids, to remain in the relationship.

Interesting...

1. There are sexless marriages. So, to an extent there's truth there, BUT...when I was filling out documents when I was considering divorcing, I learned that sex is a marital right. Granted, you don't own each other, but it is a right and going for extended dry periods (I think it was a year) is grounds for divorce. Yes, they need to teach the young women this, because it was news to me. I was in the clear, by a long shot, but it was still news.

2. I actually agree, here. Before I start I'll say sex can and should make love richer. Here is why I agree with her. Suppose your friend and his wife were happily married and he was in some sort of accident and became paralyzed from the waist down. Suppose she got some sort of debilitating illness and wound up in a comment for a very long time. Or a very likely scenario for your friend, suppose he comes to love someone other than his wife. They really connect. Like soul mate. Now, their marriage is pitifully bad, but let's suppose it's just average. On the face and most of the time, I agree with you, but when it comes down to the most very fire-in-the-soul trials, there will be times when love means sacrificing sex.

3. I'll confess to doing this, but I felt badly it. There was enough tension between my ex and me before our first was born, that when our son was born... What can I say? My son treated me better. I felt badly. I worried for my marriage, but my newborn son, who was barely able to interact with me, was a constant source of work for me, smiled at me more than my ex did. I feel terrible, but in the talk from the mothers at the park, that's what's behind this. That's what I've heard from other women I've heard do this and they felt badly about it, too.

4. Poor man.

Some freestyle input from me. I looked this up when I first started suspecting this about me. I don't know how good the information is, but it's my understanding the definition of a true asexual is going 10 months without. So, even asexuals aren't sexless. My personal adventure without going into specifics is my preference would be once a week, at most, once every three months, at least. That's why I say strong leanings toward, rather than full identification. Having said that, I'm definitely a sex camel (thank you writers of Scrubs).

I'm disclosing so much more of myself in this thread than I every thought I would, I will never feel the need to post a picture of myself. There's more than one way to come out. Still, it'll be nice not to have to tap dance around that subject, anymore.

Having slept on it and thought about it a little, today, my thoughts are essentially the same I expressed, last night. Your friend's wife probably picks up the vibe he's not happy. If she has any sort of decency, I would think she'd at least accept the two of them sitting down in front of a marital counselor to work out something amicable (that could mean some sort of arrangement between the two or divorce). If she's a sadist and enjoys torturing him, he needs to get out. If she's neither of these and there are some very deep and unresolved issues and she doesn't want to talk about them because she either doesn't want to hurt him or she doesn't feel safe to share...that one's tough. Temporary separation or his getting a job that has a lot of traveling. Have him be away from home, a lot. Let him see how he feels about being alone. Her, too.

[Give It Time]

A little more freestyling. I know there are various types of asexuals. There's that grey flag and all kinds of variations of stripes. Those are all different types of asexuals. I know there's a romantic type. It sounds like his wife could have some romantic asexual leanings. I'm going to dip a toe in on this. I know sex is very important, but I recently (yes, recently) realized that when a lot of other people are saying "I love you", they are saying, "I want to have sex with you". I was not raised with that idea and we can blame the church, society, fairy tales, children's books and Broadway musicals for that. That doesn't change the fact that I didn't equate the two until just a few weeks ago. Go ahead and be shocked.

When I did equate those, a lot of things made a lot more sense, but also those words suddenly became objectifying to me. I also felt very sorry for my ex that I didn't catch that clue. Yet, another thing to explicitly tell young women. Make them repeat it twenty times in the morning and the evening to counteract all the other fluffy innocent thoughts they think. Even with this bold new generation of girls that care more about being superheroes than princesses. Romantic notions don't die easily.

Those things, along with the indication of trouble in the relationship by putting the kids first, I think counseling is in order.

Yes, I've looked at all this in light of the church's teachings:

Ease up on the marriage doctrines and just support people being the best people they can be. Marriage isn't for everyone and that's okay.

Encourage within our young single members responsible sexual experimentation before marriage. I define that as all parties are legal, consenting adults with full time jobs and their own insurance and living away from their parents. This is so we can definitely determine libido level and orientation. So someone like me would come to the conclusion after a few partners that sex is a fun diversion, but not worth chaining someone to me over. Flipping that coin, if someone's libido is so rampant they could never be faithful, it's not a good idea for them to marry, either.

I'm also in favor of shorter term marriages. Not for everyone, but some people are serially monogamous. The human race is not homogeneous. I don't see why there is only one viable lifestyle option that is considered acceptable.

[Give It Time]

I've been waiting for someone else to post so this isn't a double post, but I have errands to run and want to check get this done before going out.

I'm going to bow out of this conversation. I want you to know I've appreciated getting this perspective. It broadens my understanding of my ex-husband's point of view.

However being the only player in a game of ugly truths strip poker gets a little tiring for me. I'm going to leave this discussion with this story.

Last January, I needed to talk to my bishop about a matter concerning my son. In preparation for that discussion, I wrote my ex to ask him if he was planning on financially supporting our son, in any way on his mission. My ex wrote back and jumped down my throat and proceeded to pull out my internal organs. I was only ever interested in him for his money. I was sneaky and conniving. I was under-handed and double dealing. The source of the misunderstanding? I always considered our son's savings earmarked for both mission and college and my ex always considered the savings earmarked for mission only.

We exchanged a few more emails where I addressed his long standing justified complaint that I never communicated with him. I pointed to how this email exchange proceeded as to a perfect example of his conversational modus operandi, and I chose to minimize conversation, because I wasn't fond of mental and emotional vivisection. I then added a personal request that he learn from our past and not do this to the new person in his life.

I related this whole thing to my therapist. I thought she would be pleased to hear of my magnanimous request on behalf of my ex's new love interest. She wasn't. She bristled. She told me that I need to trust this woman to have the emotional maturity to figure things out on her own.

Think about it. Advising and helping your friend out of this situation is something akin to helping a butterfly out of its chrysalis. It's difficult to see the struggle, but it's important for him to do it on his own and you can offer help and support once that decision is reached.

So, I'm glad you care about your friend. That speaks well of you, but you need to trust your friend to have the emotional maturity to figure things out on his own.

...and I wish I had thought of that response before I ever posted. Oh well. Live and learn.

[Newme]

IMO, When children are involved, the need to sacrifice is much greater.
Besides the 3 biggies (abuse, affair & addiction), for the sake of children- it's often best to eat humble pie and suck it up, to keep the family together. As someone mentioned, divorce involves causing some aspects of life to be harder for all - especially children. So, again, children deserve parents giving it their all & sometimes doing without.

I see marriage as something that requires a lot of upkeep to allow both to grow together. An ideal marriage may involve both striving to be their best self physically, emotionally, intellectually, financially, socially & sexually. And both are able to communicate what they need (implying they've done the inner work to know), and willingness to help meet each other's needs.

Sex seems to be a major concern for many men, and it's understandable.
Yet, consider that emotional connection is a major concern for women.
If either neglets to help the other with their needs, it can slowly kill the marriage.
Generally, it takes 2 to tango.

[Rob4Hope]

I've been waiting for someone else to post so this isn't a double post, but I have errands to run and want to check get this done before going out.

I'm going to bow out of this conversation. I want you to know I've appreciated getting this perspective. It broadens my understanding of my ex-husband's point of view.

However being the only player in a game of ugly truths strip poker gets a little tiring for me. I'm going to leave this discussion with this story.

Last January, I needed to talk to my bishop about a matter concerning my son. In preparation for that discussion, I wrote my ex to ask him if he was planning on financially supporting our son, in any way on his mission. My ex wrote back and jumped down my throat and proceeded to pull out my internal organs. I was only ever interested in him for his money. I was sneaky and conniving. I was under-handed and double dealing. The source of the misunderstanding? I always considered our son's savings earmarked for both mission and college and my ex always considered the savings earmarked for mission only.

We exchanged a few more emails where I addressed his long standing justified complaint that I never communicated with him. I pointed to how this email exchange proceeded as to a perfect example of his conversational modus operandi, and I chose to minimize conversation, because I wasn't fond of mental and emotional vivisection. I then added a personal request that he learn from our past and not do this to the new person in his life.

I related this whole thing to my therapist. I thought she would be pleased to hear of my magnanimous request on behalf of my ex's new love interest. She wasn't. She bristled. She told me that I need to trust this woman to have the emotional maturity to figure things out on her own.

Think about it. Advising and helping your friend out of this situation is something akin to helping a butterfly out of its chrysalis. It's difficult to see the struggle, but it's important for him to do it on his own and you can offer help and support once that decision is reached.

So, I'm glad you care about your friend. That speaks well of you, but you need to trust your friend to have the emotional maturity to figure things out on his own.

...and I wish I had thought of that response before I ever posted. Oh well. Live and learn.

GIT...I've read all your posts. You have immense experience that is interesting (in a healthy way), but heartbreaking as well (in an empathic way). You've been through a lot.

WOW.

I am not involved with "helping" my friend other than I am a good listener. He has made a choice, but he does need sometimes to vent, and I'm good for that.

Also, with regards to the asexual thing--there is a lot of that, and frankly, I don't think there is anything wrong. What caught me off guard, and with regards to my own marriage, I was taught heavily in the SWK era that "any two people can make a marriage work if the follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

And this,...I have learned later in life, is absolutely false.

All it takes is a simple counter example, but there are hundreds. SWK use to counsel gay men to "force" themselves to get married. (See D. Michael Quinn for this reference)....and years later, the roosters have come home to roost--divorces in such marriages are virtually assured (with RARE exceptions). I know at least 2 men personally (and I don't know a lot of gay people who were or are LDS any morre) who got out...they were tired of living a lie and denying their feelings.

Wait?...does this mean they were just not living the Gospel of Jesus Christ? And since the answer is "just living the Gospel of Jesus Christ" are SWK taught--including forcing yourself to get married if gay,...then why did I hear Dallin Oaks say that this "counsel" has subsequently been done away with?

Another example of a problem created by LDS teachings that affect many people, and caused heartache.

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I am convinced that compatibility matters GIT. I think that if you have two asexual people who get married and have an understanding about sex...then you can have a successful marriage. If you have any two people who get married and have an understanding, you can have success. But, if you have a high desire partner with a low or no desire partner, you can run into problems.

The part the church plays in this is current teachings are you are to NOT discuss sex before marriage. NOR are you to "awaken those feelings" inside,...meaning no self learning of any type. I think this is destructive. I think this idea of "sin next to murder" is total bull, and I think that a lot of children out there would be alot more forgiving of their parents having messed around a little before marriage than having years of fights with subsequent painful and devastating divorce.

In the interest of protecting against this horrible thing called sex before marriage,...or this horrible thing called masterbation (oh my!)...we spiritually criminialize people's feelings and actions, even between consenting adults.


Everyone,...please see this article here:


http://religionnews.com/2014/05/16/poss ... -harrison/

[tryingtogetitright]

Why would anyone want to be intimate with someone whom they know is disgusted by their weight? And how would you expect to find someone to love you if you truthfully tell them that your first wife disgusted you because she gained weight, wouldn't have sex, and spend too much money?

I'd be all for restricting the money if you make it, so she doesn't spend it all. Allowing her to run the both of you into financial difficulty is enabling rather than a good thing. And I would certainly urge her to see a doctor for a full medical exam (heck, I'd make appointments for joint executive physicals for both of you at the same time).

Falling out of love is not a good reason for divorce either. Marriages are made not experienced.

[Newme]

Maybe considering what someone has power over is important.
True that rare conditions like thyroid problems can contribute to weight gain.
Still, it seems like often obesity comes down to eating too much & not exercising enough. Generally, people who are healthy tend to have other good qualities like being happier, able to do more fun & exciting things (to keep the spark alive), maintain good self control and discipline. Lately, I've been considering my body as a temple - which deserves to be treated well with diet, exercise, sleep, etc. Junk food is tempting though. And I know people who are addicted to it to the point where it is killing them. (I suppose many since heart disease is #1 killer in US.) Besides abuse & adultery, addiction can be a credible reason for divorce.

I don't think the weight issue was meant to be offensive, though it could easily be taken that way. His example of hygiene is similar. If someone shows discipline to regularly brush & floss, bathe & shower, they're more pleasant to be around than if they didn't, and it reflects good self-esteem, discipline etc.