The LDS Flat Earth

[Brent]

How’s that for click bait, pretty good, yes? Let me offer this thesis right away: the LDS belief in the Book of Mormon is perfectly aligned with a belief in flat earth theory. Think about it for a moment both rely on the simple proposition of rejecting all science and fact and then replacing it with personal belief.

“I know the Book of Mormon is true.”

“I know the earth is flat.”

What’s the difference? Zip. This should give insight into why arguing the factual nature of the BoM is a pretty fruitless endeavor. Face it, in the absence of being able to present any factual argument they BoM enthusiast is in the same bind as a Flat-Earth fanboy, they have to turn to simple personal belief, it’s true because they say it’s true. All data may militate against them, all facts stand as a roadblock, there be not a shred of evidence but THEY SAY SO—and that makes it so. Take that belief system and then extrude it to cover LDS historical issues. “Joseph never had sex with anyone but Emma, it’s so because I SAY SO.” “Joseph was killed a martyr because I SAY SO.” “Thomas S. Monson is a prophet, seer and revelator because I SAY SO.” “How can you not believe me?”

Proofs be damned. Facts be damned. Historical records be damned. I BELIEVE IT SO IT IS.

How you gonna argue with that? I offer you don’t. I’d offer that proofs and facts and history is on your side and trying to bludgeon a Latter-day Saint with reality is a serious waste of time. You’re better off calling Shaq up and saying, “Yo, doofus, the earth is round ya know?” Your time is better spent in just being friendly and avoiding their obvious lack of knowledge. Personally I believe in ghosts, can’t prove it, have no science to back me but I believe that events and people can leave a shadow behind. Just do. Realize that there’s no credible science backing me in any way, shape or form but, I just believe it. Are you going to change my mind? Absolutely not, but I will agree that I got nothing; no science, no history, no facts. Maybe that’s what faith is. Latter-day Saints thrive on their flat earth theory because they believe the facts are murky and hidden, there’s a vast archeological conspiracy misinterpreting the data, years of false narratives have corrupted the truth and are twisting it to thwart God’s truth.

They’re all wrong or lying because I SAY SO. How you gonna fight that? I offer quietly and internally. Walk up to me and say, “I believe the world is flat.” I’ll simply go, “How interesting! What are your feelings on Chevy trucks? I used to be a Ford guy but now I’m a Toyota guy. Love the darn thing. Fill it with firewood, press the Tow/Haul button and things are amazing.” It’s not really important that you agree that Chevy is an inferior brand—or that if you do love Chevy you renounce your alliance. It’s small talk about opinion, I don’t need your approval or affirmation. Here’s the important part: Latter-day Saints DO. They need to be right and they need to be validated. LDS need you to agree to strengthen and fortify their OPINION on American pre-Columbian history. When your soul source of confirmation is yourself having someone else agree—or better yet—change opinions and agree is a priceless thing. When you got nothing, anything is something which is why your opinion is so important. If you can remember that simple fact you can begin to understand the anger/desperation of family members who care deeply about your opinion and their panic to get you to “see it our way”. In the end you should treat it like the Chevy/Ford/Dodge/Toyota/Nissan debate and simply remember they all do the same job, some do different things better but you don’t need to agree with me and I don’t need to agree with you because in the end it’s your truck and nobody else’s.

Chevy’s still suck though.

[Emower]

i agree this would be the best approach and the one that would minimize drama. There are a whole list of reasons why this can become really difficult though. It would serve everyone to try and keep this in mind while they engage with tbms.

[Emower]

And I would take a Chevy over a Nissan any day...

[Brent]

And I would take a Chevy over a Nissan any day...

Boy, that's a toughie.

[sparky]

I would argue that literal belief in the BoM is even more baseless than flat earthers. In order to believe the earth is flat, you just have to discount all external evidence and accept what your own eyes tell you: the earth looks flat, at least from ground level. No one has that kind of first person experience with the BoM. So to believe the BoM, you have to admit to bring open to external evidence, but you choose to accept the evidence contained solely in that book and reject over a century and a half of disconfirming evidence from subsequent archeologicsl and genetic research, not to mention biblical textual criticism.

[Corsair]

This conversation hits amusinginly close to home. There was a guy in my parent's ward who is a flat earth conspiracy theorist (among many other conspiracy topics). I do not know how I got on his email distribution list. I made the conscious decision to not engage with him since in my experience it is a waste of time after they start their own mailing list. A quick Google search would quickly show that the flight distance between Chile and South Africa is shorter than Chile to Arizona, for example. Conspiracy theories run deeper than LDS apologetics.

[Thoughtful]

How’s that for click bait, pretty good, yes? Let me offer this thesis right away: the LDS belief in the Book of Mormon is perfectly aligned with a belief in flat earth theory. Think about it for a moment both rely on the simple proposition of rejecting all science and fact and then replacing it with personal belief.

“I know the Book of Mormon is true.”

“I know the earth is flat.”

What’s the difference? Zip. This should give insight into why arguing the factual nature of the BoM is a pretty fruitless endeavor. Face it, in the absence of being able to present any factual argument they BoM enthusiast is in the same bind as a Flat-Earth fanboy, they have to turn to simple personal belief, it’s true because they say it’s true. All data may militate against them, all facts stand as a roadblock, there be not a shred of evidence but THEY SAY SO—and that makes it so. Take that belief system and then extrude it to cover LDS historical issues. “Joseph never had sex with anyone but Emma, it’s so because I SAY SO.” “Joseph was killed a martyr because I SAY SO.” “Thomas S. Monson is a prophet, seer and revelator because I SAY SO.” “How can you not believe me?”

Proofs be damned. Facts be damned. Historical records be damned. I BELIEVE IT SO IT IS.

How you gonna argue with that? I offer you don’t. I’d offer that proofs and facts and history is on your side and trying to bludgeon a Latter-day Saint with reality is a serious waste of time. You’re better off calling Shaq up and saying, “Yo, doofus, the earth is round ya know?” Your time is better spent in just being friendly and avoiding their obvious lack of knowledge. Personally I believe in ghosts, can’t prove it, have no science to back me but I believe that events and people can leave a shadow behind. Just do. Realize that there’s no credible science backing me in any way, shape or form but, I just believe it. Are you going to change my mind? Absolutely not, but I will agree that I got nothing; no science, no history, no facts. Maybe that’s what faith is. Latter-day Saints thrive on their flat earth theory because they believe the facts are murky and hidden, there’s a vast archeological conspiracy misinterpreting the data, years of false narratives have corrupted the truth and are twisting it to thwart God’s truth.

They’re all wrong or lying because I SAY SO. How you gonna fight that? I offer quietly and internally. Walk up to me and say, “I believe the world is flat.” I’ll simply go, “How interesting! What are your feelings on Chevy trucks? I used to be a Ford guy but now I’m a Toyota guy. Love the darn thing. Fill it with firewood, press the Tow/Haul button and things are amazing.” It’s not really important that you agree that Chevy is an inferior brand—or that if you do love Chevy you renounce your alliance. It’s small talk about opinion, I don’t need your approval or affirmation. Here’s the important part: Latter-day Saints DO. They need to be right and they need to be validated. LDS need you to agree to strengthen and fortify their OPINION on American pre-Columbian history. When your soul source of confirmation is yourself having someone else agree—or better yet—change opinions and agree is a priceless thing. When you got nothing, anything is something which is why your opinion is so important. If you can remember that simple fact you can begin to understand the anger/desperation of family members who care deeply about your opinion and their panic to get you to “see it our way”. In the end you should treat it like the Chevy/Ford/Dodge/Toyota/Nissan debate and simply remember they all do the same job, some do different things better but you don’t need to agree with me and I don’t need to agree with you because in the end it’s your truck and nobody else’s.

Chevy’s still suck though.

It can be small talk for us, but for them, it's critical, emotional, and potentially damning.

That this is so difficult is only because they make it so.

In my family growing up, you could NOT testify of any other truck besides Mopar products, or you were basically an idiot or child of Satan. There's no middle ground, even on cars.

[Just This Guy]

There is an old saying:

Never wrestle with a pig. You only get dirty and muddy and the pig enjoys it.

Same hold true here. Somepeople are just not worth the effort to engage with.



I do credit Subaru with making me a Ford fan. Subarus are a long rant for me about how bad they are. Not a fan of Chevy's either.

[Grace2Daisy]

Sometimes we make our beliefs a part of ourselves; we identify as our political party, religion and a million other beliefs. People don't take well to what they perceive as a personal attack and consider an attack on their core beliefs to be the same as an attack on them. This causes people to ignore opposing evidence and search for facts confirming their beliefs. This is not to say that these are stupid people it's just human nature to confirm our beliefs and fool ourselves. There are times I like the phrase "willfully ignorant."