When will TSM pass?

[Korihor]

Not trying to be morbid or insensitive, but how long do we think he will last? I can see him much beyond the end of this year. But I'm usually wrong. Anyone care to venture a guess?

When the baton is passed, and Nelson formally takes the reins, will things change much? Nelson is unlikely to have as long a tenure as TSM in the drivers seat. He's already 92.

To match Monson, he would need to make it at least to 101. I think the odds are slim of that happening, even for a heart surgeon.
Oaks Ballard Eyring and Hales won't outlast outwit outplay Nelson. So by the year 2025 -2030 , maybe we'll see enough of a change up for Holland, Uchtdorf or Bednar to take control.

[Palerider]

I'm seeing so many articles lately about staying in the church, I have to believe that within 10-15 years, major changes are coming no matter who is in charge.
I told my SP when I was leaving 8 years ago that this historical issue was going to be the biggest problem the church would face in the future.

He just dismissed it out of hand like it was nothing.

This problem isn't going away. It will have more impact eventually than anyone who is trying to steer the foundering ship.

[Brent]

He's getting the best medical treatment money can buy, sounds cold but in the end someone will have to pull the plug. It's the same problem anyone with aging, failing parents faces.

[Korihor]

He's getting the best medical treatment money can buy, sounds cold but in the end someone will have to pull the plug. It's the same problem anyone with aging, failing parents faces.

I didn't consider that angle too much. Will the COB keep him alive as long as possible or let nature run its course

[Give It Time]

This is my understanding and experience. Medical professionals will do everything in their power to keep a person alive as long as they can. When they've reached the point where they've done all they can do, hospice.

So, this one isn't entirely in God's, the 15s or the family's hands. It's in the Hippocratic oath and the almighty dollar's (insurance company's) hands.

[Red Ryder]

If he passes, it's god's will.
If he continues to live, it's god's will.
If he gets ill, swallows a pill, and closes the till;
It's god's will.

If he eats at Manny's Mexican Grill;
TSM will pass... gas.
The best doctors will stand by;
Even if he blows out his ass.
Supporting the prophet,
Waiting for him to pass.

Then comes the funeral potatoes,
The autobiographies,
Sales of new first presidency picture frames,
Sold at Deseret Book with a complete set of hooks.

If TSM passes,
The world will wonder;
What this man did to deserve exmo jeers;
When all he was known for was wiggling his ears.

[2bizE]

I predict March of next year.

[Corsair]

If TSM passes,
The world will wonder;
What this man did to deserve exmo jeers;
When all he was known for was wiggling his ears.

You career in poetry should have been nurtured, but instead you went into a marketable career.

As far as the mortality of Thomas Monson and possible changes, I think back to rumors of removing the one year civil marriage penalty. It simply never happened. I don't know when Monson's number will be up and I am entirely indifferent to it.

In some of the really old issues of "Dialogue" you can find the writings of Eugene England who was a brilliant, thoughtful thinker that was, of course, not appreciated by LDS leadership. I think Tyrell Givens would be the equivalent today, except current apostles largely accept what Givens does. Brother England was always concerned about the race based priesthood ban and viewed it like an Abrahamic test for the LDS church. He was overjoyed when June 1978 rolled around. But this did not transform the LDS church into an enlightened utopia.

Eugene England was eventually fired from BYU for being more popular than the administration could tolerate and Bruce McConkie wrote a scathing version of his "Seven Deadly Heresies" against many of Brother England's ideas. I get the impression that Eugene England had a grandly naive vision of how the LDS church worked and unintentionally placed himself against the hard realities of governing a corporate church.

Eugene England never gave up hope but I see no good reason to follow his lead. In contrast with him, I can't imagine that anything will somehow change once Thomas Monson passes his prophetic mantle to someone new.

[Korihor]

If he passes, it's god's will.
If he continues to live, it's god's will.
If he gets ill, swallows a pill, and closes the till;
It's god's will.

If he eats at Manny's Mexican Grill;
TSM will pass... gas.
The best doctors will stand by;
Even if he blows out his ass.
Supporting the prophet,
Waiting for him to pass.

Then comes the funeral potatoes,
The autobiographies,
Sales of new first presidency picture frames,
Sold at Deseret Book with a complete set of hooks.

If TSM passes,
The world will wonder;
What this man did to deserve exmo jeers;
When all he was known for was wiggling his ears.

If you wrote this , you're in the wrong f@?&ing career.

[Corsair]

If you wrote this , you're in the wrong f@?&ing career.

While I am not privy to Red Ryder's financial situation, I am still quite confident of this equation:

(Salary of Red Ryder's current career) > (Salary of being a poet)

We will just have hope that he graces us with his obvious talent on occasion as the muse blesses him with inspiration.

[achilles]

So, back to the subject...

I have watched my mother hooked up with half a dozen tubes the past week, thinking about quality of life and passing into the universe (she has turned around and is recovering, BTW). I also recall Steve Benson's horror at how ETB was...used? shall we say? Completely disabled, unable to prophesy, see, or reveal anything, or administer the Church, the 14 not revealing the situation to the membership...cranking out documents with the autopen (was my mission call signed by this very autopen?)...and thinking "This is wrong."

I get that making decisions about when to let someone pass is a highly personal thing, and a decision that's highly contextual, but this guy is the Prophet (ostensibly). The Brethren need to figure out a better way to help Apostles and First Presidency members when they can no longer perform their callings. These men deserve a rest, and time with their families (whatever my feelings about how they've screwed over my life and yanked me around). Emeritus status is one approach, which is already in use for the Seventies.

I think the...folk belief?...that God determines who is Prophet by controlling how and when Apostles die...may be preventing them from taking action on this. I don't know.

Sorry about the stream of consciousness...

An article about ETB in the L.A. Times http://articles.latimes.com/1993-07-31/ ... aft-benson

[Palerider]

My mother passed away from Alzheimer's about six years ago and I miss her every day. But I miss the woman that I knew in her 60's, not the one who had to go through Hell in her 80's.

Of course we had her papers signed for a DNR (do not resuscitate) and we currently have the same instrument in place for my 94 year old father who is in similar condition. Interesting that one of his biggest fears was growing old and suffering with a long term illness.

I wouldn't attempt to extend life for him for even a moment. His life is pretty miserable actually, trying to live in a world he can no longer make sense of and never will from this point on.

Current church leadership are living under a veil of darkness that they use all kinds of "heroic" stories to justify. It isn't working and they should be ashamed.

[Korihor]

If you wrote this , you're in the wrong f@?&ing career.

While I am not privy to Red Ryder's financial situation, I am still quite confident of this equation:

(Salary of Red Ryder's current career) > (Salary of being a poet)

We will just have hope that he graces us with his obvious talent on occasion as the muse blesses him with inspiration.

I think your equation is true, but I might modify it

(RR Current salary) less than or equal to (Salary of being poet) + (other creative outlets)

The arts don't pay well. But RR's talents need some more attention. I'm also glad he sticks around.

[MoPag]

I think the...folk belief?...that God determines who is Prophet by controlling how and when Apostles die...may be preventing them from taking action on this. I don't know.

I think you nailed it. The mainstream church sees TSM as little more than a puppet and God is pulling the strings. That is one of the big selling points of Mormonism. We have a living prophet and everything he says is the same as God saying it. So if God is controlling everything he says, surely He is also controlling his life as well.

[oliver_denom]

According to the social security office, he's expected to live another 4.3 years. However, when you get diagnosed with dementia, then it's an average of four years after diagnosis. If he really started to struggle in 2015, that's when folks noticed him having trouble at conference, then we're looking at around 2019.

Also, this is totally morbid.

[nibbler]

I get that making decisions about when to let someone pass is a highly personal thing, and a decision that's highly contextual, but this guy is the Prophet (ostensibly). The Brethren need to figure out a better way to help Apostles and First Presidency members when they can no longer perform their callings. These men deserve a rest, and time with their families (whatever my feelings about how they've screwed over my life and yanked me around). Emeritus status is one approach, which is already in use for the Seventies.

You made me wonder something... with a person in a position of power like Monson, how much of the decision rests with family and how much rests with the organization he heads?

My mother passed away from Alzheimer's about six years ago and I miss her every day. But I miss the woman that I knew in her 60's, not the one who had to go through Hell in her 80's.

Of course we had her papers signed for a DNR (do not resuscitate) and we currently have the same instrument in place for my 94 year old father who is in similar condition. Interesting that one of his biggest fears was growing old and suffering with a long term illness.

I wouldn't attempt to extend life for him for even a moment. His life is pretty miserable actually, trying to live in a world he can no longer make sense of and never will from this point on.

I've been in those same shoes. Hippocratic oath or no, there comes a point where you realize these people have no quality of life, they are extremely old, they are only going to get worse with time, and as sad/morbid as it sounds, death is what is best for them.


I don't expect to see much change after TSM passes. The people that will run the show after he passes are probably already running the show.

[wtfluff]

Also, this is totally morbid.

Exactly as the mormon god planned it.

[Stig]

Not trying to be morbid or insensitive, but how long do we think he will last? I can see him much beyond the end of this year. But I'm usually wrong. Anyone care to venture a guess?

When the baton is passed, and Nelson formally takes the reins, will things change much? Nelson is unlikely to have as long a tenure as TSM in the drivers seat. He's already 92.

To match Monson, he would need to make it at least to 101. I think the odds are slim of that happening, even for a heart surgeon.
Oaks Ballard Eyring and Hales won't outlast outwit outplay Nelson. So by the year 2025 -2030 , maybe we'll see enough of a change up for Holland, Uchtdorf or Bednar to take control.

I set the over-under at January 2018 and take the over.

[Stig]

If he passes, it's god's will.
If he continues to live, it's god's will.
If he gets ill, swallows a pill, and closes the till;
It's god's will.

If he eats at Manny's Mexican Grill;
TSM will pass... gas.
The best doctors will stand by;
Even if he blows out his ass.
Supporting the prophet,
Waiting for him to pass.

Then comes the funeral potatoes,
The autobiographies,
Sales of new first presidency picture frames,
Sold at Deseret Book with a complete set of hooks.

If TSM passes,
The world will wonder;
What this man did to deserve exmo jeers;
When all he was known for was wiggling his ears.