My impressions of Islam

[Newme]

My Impression of Islam

Achmed - "What say you Moksha, shall we pray or shall we jihad?"
Moksha - "Aiieeyeeee!"

Hey, didn't say it would be a good impression. I do a much better Richard Nixon.

I like your humor, Moksha!
No doubt there's humor in every religion and its traditions.

[achilles]

You don't have to hate or persecute people, claim the devil is in them, in order to disagree with their positions. That's where a lot of people seem to have difficulty. They disagree with the tenants of Islam, profoundly, but that doesn't mean their religion needs to be outlawed or demonized.

My dad has this uber-Manichaean worldview going on--everything is about how Satan wants to destroy the Plan and agency. Literally, everything get funneled through that lens. It's hard to convince someone like that not to demonize--it's baked in.

With the preoccupation with Satan, you'd think Satan means more than Jesus in their paradigm.

Anyway, I tend to feel impatient when people lump all Muslims into one batch, and make hundreds of millions of them accountable for the actions of hundreds, or even hundreds of thousands.

I've tried to get him to watch this documentary, but he won't do it. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x12nv9 ... shortfilms

[1smartdodog]

I think any religion that tries to compel women to hide their beauty to the public is not good. Both Mormons and muslims do that constantly. I think it is oppressive to women and controlling.

[Newme]

I think any religion that tries to compel women to hide their beauty to the public is not good. Both Mormons and muslims do that constantly. I think it is oppressive to women and controlling.

One night around a bonfire, I asked this Jewish guy (from
Israel) thinking similar to what you mentioned. He justified it as showing respect & honor to women, since men tend to be visual and easily turned on. I think it's a fair point, though I really feel for women wearing extra covering when it's really hot. My Muslim friend said it's entirely up to the woman - though she's coming from a western society Muslim group.

[oliver_denom]

I think any religion that tries to compel women to hide their beauty to the public is not good. Both Mormons and muslims do that constantly. I think it is oppressive to women and controlling.

One night around a bonfire, I asked this Jewish guy (from
Israel) thinking similar to what you mentioned. He justified it as showing respect & honor to women, since men tend to be visual and easily turned on. I think it's a fair point, though I really feel for women wearing extra covering when it's really hot. My Muslim friend said it's entirely up to the woman - though she's coming from a western society Muslim group.

This is the same argument the church uses to justify its modesty teachings. What is that even based on? Even if it were true, that men are more aroused by sight, then why does that justify covering women? Why don't they make men wear blindfolds? There's nothing wrong with arousing or feeling aroused, it's human for god's sake. It's what you do when aroused that's the issue. The thought of covering people in order to prevent the possibility of a feeling is the ultimate example of oppression.

But setting that aside...

I think most of us here understand what "choice" means within an orthodox religious context. You can choose to cover yourself, or you can choose to be shunned and ostracized. The choice isn't really a free one within the cultural context. That's not basis for honor and respect. You don't show anyone respect by taking their freedom.

[1smartdodog]

I think any religion that tries to compel women to hide their beauty to the public is not good. Both Mormons and muslims do that constantly. I think it is oppressive to women and controlling.

One night around a bonfire, I asked this Jewish guy (from
Israel) thinking similar to what you mentioned. He justified it as showing respect & honor to women, since men tend to be visual and easily turned on. I think it's a fair point, though I really feel for women wearing extra covering when it's really hot. My Muslim friend said it's entirely up to the woman - though she's coming from a western society Muslim group.

This is the same argument the church uses to justify its modesty teachings. What is that even based on? Even if it were true, that men are more aroused by sight, then why does that justify covering women? Why don't they make men wear blindfolds? There's nothing wrong with arousing or feeling aroused, it's human for god's sake. It's what you do when aroused that's the issue. The thought of covering people in order to prevent the possibility of a feeling is the ultimate example of oppression.

But setting that aside...

I think most of us here understand what "choice" means within an orthodox religious context. You can choose to cover yourself, or you can choose to be shunned and ostracized. The choice isn't really a free one within the cultural context. That's not basis for honor and respect. You don't show anyone respect by taking their freedom.

Yep.

[alas]

I think any religion that tries to compel women to hide their beauty to the public is not good. Both Mormons and muslims do that constantly. I think it is oppressive to women and controlling.

One night around a bonfire, I asked this Jewish guy (from
Israel) thinking similar to what you mentioned. He justified it as showing respect & honor to women, since men tend to be visual and easily turned on. I think it's a fair point, though I really feel for women wearing extra covering when it's really hot. My Muslim friend said it's entirely up to the woman - though she's coming from a western society Muslim group.

This is the same argument the church uses to justify its modesty teachings. What is that even based on? Even if it were true, that men are more aroused by sight, then why does that justify covering women? Why don't they make men wear blindfolds? There's nothing wrong with arousing or feeling aroused, it's human for god's sake. It's what you do when aroused that's the issue. The thought of covering people in order to prevent the possibility of a feeling is the ultimate example of oppression.

But setting that aside...

I think most of us here understand what "choice" means within an orthodox religious context. You can choose to cover yourself, or you can choose to be shunned and ostracized. The choice isn't really a free one within the cultural context. That's not basis for honor and respect. You don't show anyone respect by taking their freedom.

The "honor and respect" is not respect for the human being. It is keeping sacred the baby making box. Respect for a human being sees their humanity first, not their sexuality first. So, they may "respect" a woman's virginity, but that is not respecting her. It is objectifying her, and then respecting an object. Whenever men make women cover up, they are not respecting her or honoring her. They are honoring the idea of female purity. Just look at what happens when a female " dishonors" her male kin by being human, they think they have the right to kill her for it. But they don't care about the man who "dishonors" the family name. Killing your sister because she decides to marry who she wants instead of who you want isn't respect and it isn't love. It is ownership. It is honoring the idea of female purity, not honoring a flesh and blood woman. So, they can claim it is about honor and respect, because they don't even see women as human beings. But, really, it is about control, about ownership, about purity.

Now, having ripped the male Moslems to shreds, I guess i will leave it up to people here to interpret what I mean if I say that I honor and respect Moslems. Does it mean that I don't quite see them as human, same as what they mean when they say they honor and respect women? Or does it mean that I like and respect, but feel a bit sorry for the female ones? Or is it closer to me saying they are like most people, a combination of good and not so good?

But to tell you the truth, the only one I knew well was back in the days before they retrenched. Back in the 1970s, they dressed very western, with the women in knee length skirts, men clean shaven, no scarves or burkas. (I have even see pictures of Osama Ben Laden in hip western clothing) So, is it even the same religion? Or is that what it can be without the extremism?

[LSOF]

If Christians can ignore the vile verses of their holy book, then so can Muslims.

[Newme]

Personally, I dress modestly usually because I don't feel comfortable having my boobs or but hang out for all to see. When I used to dress immodestly, I tended to attract guys who wanted a quick lay and were not interested in respecting me as a person. They objectified me - looking at my body more than my eyes and definitely more than my mind.

Speaking of respect for life and babies... if I was one of the numerous babies killed in abortion, and I could have a say, I'd probably prefer all be done to avoid unwanted pregnancies and thus avoid unnecessary and cruely inhuman genocidal killings (abortions). Part of that would entail women considering the influence she has in how she chooses to
present her body. Also, considering how STDs are spreading like wild-fire, I think is more reason to be more careful in what one communicates via wardrobe.

Of course, to each their own, but I do see some societal wisdom in some of these religious principles of modesty.