Gospel Doctrine topic this Week

[Hagoth]

Lesson 23: “Seek Learning, Even by Study and Also by Faith”

should read:

Lesson 23: "Seek Learning, Even by Study and Also by Faith... on second thought, not so much by study."

[LSOF]

Joe Smith dictates a "revelation" to Oliver Cowdery:

J: "And ye are to seek learning..."
O: Hold on, Joseph. Are you sure you want the Saints seeking learning?
J: No, but we have far too many ignoramuses in our ranks.
O: But study leads to apostasy.
J: Well then, shall we continue?
O: Sure.
J: "... by faith, [sigh] and even by study."
O: Joseph, learning is not had by faith.
J: Fine; I'll transpose them. "[sigh] ... Even by study, and also by faith." There you go, Oliver.

[Palerider]

I remember in my first set of discussions in the mission field that faith in something that isn't true isn't really faith even though it might be very sincere.

Mormons are quick to point to the BoM as their test of whether their "gospel" is true. But I wonder how many people over the past many years have read the BoM and prayed about it sincerely and found it to be utterly false? Think of how many millions of BsoM have been handed out and how very little fruit they have reaped in the larger view of things.

I know, I know....those people just weren't prepared to receive God's messengers......but what if, just what if....THEY were right and the Mormons were wrong?

Nah......

[Corsair]

Mormons are quick to point to the BoM as their test of whether their "gospel" is true. But I wonder how many people over the past many years have read the BoM and prayed about it sincerely and found it to be utterly false? Think of how many millions of BsoM have been handed out and how very little fruit they have reaped in the larger view of things.

I asked an apologist friend of mine about how this works. Suppose a person prays about the BoM and gets a positive answer, but decides that one of the FLDS groups is where God is leading him. All of the FLDS factions acknowledge the prophetic role of Joseph Smith, the divinity of the Book of Mormon, and the importance of priesthood temple ordinances. There are thousands of polygamist adherents in Utah living in some level of public or private existence. Surely every one of their youth must face this question at some point. Many gain a testimony of their preferred polygamist prophet.

My apologist friend simply stated his conviction that God would not allow an honest seeker to do this. Someone earnestly praying about the Book of Mormon is going to be led to the church headed by T. Spencer Monson. Any other result would be the result of sin or not being honest about their study. Being raised in polygamous church would be an unfortunate situation, but God would eventually lead an honest seeker to join the church that owned the registered trademark of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints".

I was not trying to trap him in this circular reasoning. I simply wanted clarity on how he thought about this conundrum. He answered as I expected and did not attempt a rigorous and epistemologically sound explanation. I don't think that any LDS leader or apologist can provide a good answer, but I am very interested if one of them attempts to do so.

[Zack Tacorin Dos]

I asked an apologist friend of mine about how this works. Suppose a person prays about the BoM and gets a positive answer, but decides that one of the FLDS groups is where God is leading him. . .

My apologist friend simply stated his conviction that God would not allow an honest seeker to do this. . .

I was not trying to trap him in this circular reasoning. I simply wanted clarity on how he thought about this conundrum. He answered as I expected and did not attempt a rigorous and epistemologically sound explanation. I don't think that any LDS leader or apologist can provide a good answer, but I am very interested if one of them attempts to do so.

Corsair,

I agree with all of this and find the part I underlined very interesting too. I've pressed some very unprofessional apologists on this, and it's as if they can't even wrap their mind around the question, and/or they're trying to avoid answering the question. I kid you not that their responses are typically nonsensical. With apologists that are a little more astute, I don't think I've ever gotten an answer--sort of an "I'm not sure; I'll have to get back with you on that."

Part of what's so interesting about this is that the Church teaches it's members that a testimony (Moroni's promise epistemology) is a more certain way of understanding and knowing the truth. But, when you look at it carefully, I don't think there's any reason to think it's of any more value than "Going with your gut." There is value in trusting your "instincts" or your "gut." As I understand it, our underlying map of reality, much of which is unconsciousness, helps us make decisions quickly by going with a gut feel. The problem is, if that map of reality is off, then the conclusions based on it are not based on reality. This process of "figuring out the truth" provides very to minimize the effect of our biases. In fact, in the Church, certain biases are indoctrinated and encouraged, and then given as part of the context we are supposed to develop in order to figure out the truth.

TL;DR:
I think LDS revelation is something like the opposite of what it claims, that it's a horrible way of trying to get at the truth.

[Culper Jr.]

Part of what's so interesting about this is that the Church teaches it's members that a testimony (Moroni's promise epistemology) is a more certain way of understanding and knowing the truth. But, when you look at it carefully, I don't think there's any reason to think it's of any more value than "Going with your gut."

One of my shelf items before the collapse was this issue of receiving revelation using the Moroni's promise epistemology. I was always taught to identify the resultant feelings of the spirit (those good, bosom burning feelings) as testifying of truth. I was once watching a show on TV where a lesbian couple was getting married, and one of their fathers refused to attend or something and her ex husband, as a noble gesture, stood in his place in the wedding... something like that. I was very touched by this and felt strongly what I had previously identified as the spirit. I was very confused by this; the spirit is testifying to me of gay marriage?!?!? How can that be?!?! According to church teachings I should be repulsed by this, but the spirit was telling me this was good and noble.

I started paying more attention to these feelings that the church identifies as the fountain of all truth and learned many things... not only that gay marriage is true and good as stated above, but that Yoda is a true prophet, that Jyn Erso sacrificed her life so that the galaxy could be free of the Death Star. I am so thankful for Captain America, and all that he has done for us. I know.... I KNOW... that Wonder Woman nobly rose above the trench that day in WWI and saved that Belgian town...

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I see the feelings we get from the Moroni's promise epistemology as more of a reflection of our values, not as a way to find absolute truth.

[Zack Tacorin Dos]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I see the feelings we get from the Moroni's promise epistemology as more of a reflection of our values, not as a way to find absolute truth.

Culper Jr.,

This.

Why else would individuals of just about any faith get confirmation from the Spirit of God that theirs is the only Church God has established?

It seems like it's the flip side to cognitive dissonance to me--sort of a cognitive resonance. You read or view something and it resonates with your values. Of course you'll feel the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). I don't believe it's actually caused by some outside spirit interacting with ours, but I could be wrong. Regardless of its cause, I think experiencing "the Spirit" is valuable. I think it draws us closer to others, and helps us have a sense of purpose.

Thanks for bringing this up,
Zack

[moksha]

Sometimes a countervailing option is helpful in religious decision making. For what it is worth, the Kamala Sutta touches on many issues that have been discussed here, like how to know what path to follow.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Too bad religious choices are not as easy as determining a good Asian buffet. You want the food to be plentiful and pleasant, but you can take extra delight in a spicy kimchi and reasonable selection of sushi. If they claim to have the world's only true wasabi be prepared for it to set your mouth on fire.

[oliblish]

I asked an apologist friend of mine about how this works. Suppose a person prays about the BoM and gets a positive answer, but decides that one of the FLDS groups is where God is leading him. All of the FLDS factions acknowledge the prophetic role of Joseph Smith, the divinity of the Book of Mormon, and the importance of priesthood temple ordinances. There are thousands of polygamist adherents in Utah living in some level of public or private existence. Surely every one of their youth must face this question at some point. Many gain a testimony of their preferred polygamist prophet.

I have always thought there was some sloppy logic going on when applying the Moroni promise:

1. Read the BOM
2. Pray
3. Receive confirmation the BOM is true
4. Therefore the LDS church is true and Thomas Monson is a prophet

The jump from 3 to 4 does not seem to logically follow. Especially since there are dozens of other churches that believe in Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon other than TCOJCoLDS. Sure, some of these other churches are much smaller than the Salt Lake based LDS church. But I don't think we want to start basing the truthfulness of any church on its relative size.

So the best a testimony of the Book of Mormon can do is narrow down the number of possible true churches to several dozen. But members of churches not related to Joseph Smith claim to have spiritual manifestations as well. How can this be? I have heard it explained that most churches have some truth in them so the Holy Ghost will testify to that portion of the truth.

The problem with this is that maybe it is our church that only has a portion of the truth and that is why we feel the spirit. Maybe there is another church out there that has the complete truth. How would we know? If all churches can produce spiritual feelings how are we to determine which is the true one? I don't think there is an answer to this.

A spiritual witness cannot reliably indicate which church is true.

[Palerider]

The problem with this is that maybe it is our church that only has a portion of the truth and that is why we feel the spirit. Maybe there is another church out there that has the complete truth. How would we know? If all churches can produce spiritual feelings how are we to determine which is the true one? I don't think there is an answer to this.

Yeah, when I tried to explain this to my Stake President, in essence he said he didn't think God would split hairs quite that finely. Needless to say, we had to disagree.

[blazerb]

I asked an apologist friend of mine about how this works. Suppose a person prays about the BoM and gets a positive answer, but decides that one of the FLDS groups is where God is leading him. All of the FLDS factions acknowledge the prophetic role of Joseph Smith, the divinity of the Book of Mormon, and the importance of priesthood temple ordinances. There are thousands of polygamist adherents in Utah living in some level of public or private existence. Surely every one of their youth must face this question at some point. Many gain a testimony of their preferred polygamist prophet.

I have always thought there was some sloppy logic going on when applying the Moroni promise:

1. Read the BOM
2. Pray
3. Receive confirmation the BOM is true
4. Therefore the LDS church is true and Thomas Monson is a prophet

The jump from 3 to 4 does not seem to logically follow. Especially since there are dozens of other churches that believe in Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon other than TCOJCoLDS. Sure, some of these other churches are much smaller than the Salt Lake based LDS church. But I don't think we want to start basing the truthfulness of any church on its relative size.

So the best a testimony of the Book of Mormon can do is narrow down the number of possible true churches to several dozen. But members of churches not related to Joseph Smith claim to have spiritual manifestations as well. How can this be? I have heard it explained that most churches have some truth in them so the Holy Ghost will testify to that portion of the truth.

The problem with this is that maybe it is our church that only has a portion of the truth and that is why we feel the spirit. Maybe there is another church out there that has the complete truth. How would we know? If all churches can produce spiritual feelings how are we to determine which is the true one? I don't think there is an answer to this.

A spiritual witness cannot reliably indicate which church is true.

This is so true. I kind of saw the problem way back in the MTC, but I did not let myself think about it. To be honest, I had no idea there were so many restoration churches around. I knew about the RLDS (as they were then known) and the fundamentalist groups.

I first met a member of the RLDS church when I was in high school. I think I rejected his church because I had been primed to think about religion in a particular way, and he did not present his religion in the way I expected. Correlation had a strong effect on me. It produced assumptions that I could not recognize without a lot of work.

[Craig Paxton]

I no longer attend church...however this particular lesson and lessons like it do impact me...due to the fact that my believing wife hears this shit and helps drive a wedge in our marital relationship. When the church is teaching my wife what a lazy, sinful, offended person her husband is...it doesn't help matters.

[redjay]

I no longer attend church...however this particular lesson and lessons like it do impact me...due to the fact that my believing wife hears this poop and helps drive a wedge in our marital relationship. When the church is teaching my wife what a lazy, sinful, offended person her husband is...it doesn't help matters.

Only 3 posts since January: you are lazy!

( I commend your restraint - I probably spend a bit too much time here)

[shadow]

I remember in my first set of discussions in the mission field that faith in something that isn't true isn't really faith even though it might be very sincere.

Mormons are quick to point to the BoM as their test of whether their "gospel" is true. But I wonder how many people over the past many years have read the BoM and prayed about it sincerely and found it to be utterly false? Think of how many millions of BsoM have been handed out and how very little fruit they have reaped in the larger view of things.

I know, I know....those people just weren't prepared to receive God's messengers......but what if, just what if....THEY were right and the Mormons were wrong?

Nah......

One experience on my mission had me baffled at the time. I just put in on my shelf, but I have remembered it more prominently since my own faith transition. We street contacted a guy and he invited us to his house. We had a great discussion, and we left him with a Book of Mormon and asked that he read 3 Nephi 11, I think, and obviously Moroni 10:3-5. When we went back for our follow-up appointment a day or two later, we asked how the reading had gone. This man replied that he had read the whole thing. At first, I thought maybe the language barrier was causing me to misunderstand, so I clarified that he had read the whole chapter. He came back and corrected me, saying again that he had read the whole Book of Mormon.

I think I actually chuckled a little bit when he said that. I had visions of Parley P. Pratt:

I opened it with eagerness, and read its title page. I then read the testimony of several witnesses in relation to the manner of its being found and translated. After this I commenced its contents by course. I read all day; eating was a burden, I had no desire for food; sleep was a burden when the night came, for I preferred reading to sleep.

As I read, the spirit of the Lord was upon me, and I knew and comprehended that the book was true, as plainly and manifestly as a man comprehends and knows that he exists.”

Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, ed. Parley P. Pratt Jr. (1938), 36–37.

Unfortunately for the young missionary version of myself, our investigator did not share the same sentiments as Parley's second paragraph. Our guy said he didn't believe it at all. When we asked him how he felt reading it, and he said it was like reading any other book, I was dumbfounded. I had no idea how to respond. We muddled our way through that meeting, and the man declined a follow-up meeting. I'm pretty sure I eventually dismissed it as him not being prepared. Conversely, none of the people I thought were prepared and ended up baptizing actually read the whole Book of Mormon.

[BriansThoughtMirror]

Shadow and Palerider- I had similar experiences on my mission that eventually led me to question. Sincere, Christ loving people would read the BOM, pray about it, and do one of the following:
1) Say God told them it wasn't true (one guy actually put it in a ziploc bag and left it behind his house until we came to take it back because it gave him such a negative feeling, which he interpreted to be a warning from God).
2) Say they read it and had a lot of concerns, and then poke holes in it using nothing but the knowledge they already had of the Bible, Christianity, and history. They made it seem easy, and I had no answers.
3) Refuse to talk with us again, or worse, ask to pray for us. The prayers showed such a pained, sincere concern for our souls.

I rationalized it away thinking that Satan had gotten to them, but it caused me no end of cognitive dissonance. These people were clearly good, sincere people who loved Jesus. Why would God allow them to be deceived? Also, I had expected to open my mouth and have it filled with the necessary words, and expound the truth clearly using the BOM, as my patriarchal blessing had promised, but I was never any good at answering these concerns (I had been very faithful and studious, too). It was painful and confusing.

Now, I tend to agree that the spiritual feelings we experience are more a reflection of our values than of absolute truth. That was an excellent way of putting it!

[MoPag]

I started paying more attention to these feelings that the church identifies as the fountain of all truth and learned many things... not only that gay marriage is true and good as stated above, but that Yoda is a true prophet, that Jyn Erso sacrificed her life so that the galaxy could be free of the Death Star. I am so thankful for Captain America, and all that he has done for us. I know.... I KNOW... that Wonder Woman nobly rose above the trench that day in WWI and saved that Belgian town...

And Dumbledore was the greatest wizard to ever live.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I see the feelings we get from the Moroni's promise epistemology as more of a reflection of our values, not as a way to find absolute truth.

So I remember reading King Benjamin's speech in the BOM when I was 14 years old and I got the most wonderful feeling. And I was like "Great I have a testimony of the BOM! I can check that box off." I did wonder why they didn't talk about things like helping the poor in church. They were so into modesty/chastity, and yelling at us for listening to "bad" music. But I did really feel something (and I still do) when I read KS's words in the BOM.

And the sh*tty thing the church did, was take my feelings and manipulate me into believing other sh*t.

I have always thought there was some sloppy logic going on when applying the Moroni promise:

1. Read the BOM
2. Pray
3. Receive confirmation the BOM is true
4. Therefore the LDS church is true and Thomas Monson is a prophet

The jump from 3 to 4 does not seem to logically follow.

Not only do thy not logically follow, but look at all the other crap you take into your world view when you embrace the LDS church verses just embracing the BOM. All of the sudden there is some guy that talks to and for god and he has had these 14 buddies who are also "prophets seers and revelators" And you now have dietary restrictions and special undies and families are forever, but only ones that look and act a certain way.

It's like they took the good feeling/experience I had, and said, if you have that feeling, you have to believe all this crazy sh*t too.