I joined this board about two years ago (before it moved to this new site) in the middle of my faith crisis/transition. I used to post here pretty frequently, but since I've rebuilt my worldview (now atheistic/secular) I mostly just poke my head in now and then.
I'm still active, such as it is, with a (thankfully low-responsibility) calling. My wife is still a committed member who believes on some level; I'm not sure how literally she takes things because we just don't talk about religion much. We're both getting graduate degrees in science, and 99.9% of our conversations and activities are normal, non-churchy stuff. We go to church, hear ridiculous talks/lessons, then come home and don't talk about anything churchy until the next Sunday. I don't get any of the "benefits" of a believing member (e.g. feeling peaceful that I checked the daily boxes of scriptures, prayer, going to church, etc.; thinking that I know God's True Truth; having deep shared beliefs with a community, etc.), because I don't believe any of this BS anymore.
And yet we still observe these stupid Mormon rules. I still have to wear ugly, uncomfortable, annoying underwear, she still has to search high and low for "modest" clothing, unable to buy that cute pair of shorts because the stupid underwear pokes out a centimeter, we can't have a sip of beer when we're out with friends, we go to three mind-numbing hours of church every week, and oh yeah, we're paying through the nose for it all. All this just for the social aspects of the church, which I'm sure we could find easily in another community (we live in a large metro area, it wouldn't be hard to find another community).
I'm not sure what the point of this post is; I just needed somewhere to vent. I would almost rather have taken the blue pill, because so much of our experienced reality is what we perceive it to be, and then at least I would get some perceived benefits from these stupid practices and beliefs. But instead I have to keep the rules without getting the benefits. All because I love my wife too much to try and break down her faith. The dam will probably break someday, and I'm not looking forward to it. The whole situation just sucks.
Also, we don't have kids yet, but I'm already terrified of putting them through primary and YM/YW someday.
That is all.
Being NOM is the worst
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TestimonyLost
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:28 pm
- Location: Boise, Idaho, USA
Re: Being NOM is the worst
Having had yet another fight with my wife last night, I hear ya Sparky. My wife and I are so far apart on how our life would be with me as an open nonbeliever that I made the decision last night to just keep faking it for as long as I can. I don't know when my own dam will break (some days it feels like it's imminent, other days I feel like I could fake it for a lifetime).
At the very least, know that there's at least one other person who understands what you're going through!
At the very least, know that there's at least one other person who understands what you're going through!
Re: Being NOM is the worst
That's tough. I don't have a good, general solution for you. I simply stopped wearing garments except at church a couple of years ago. I also did not ask permission of my wife on that issue.
Re: Being NOM is the worst
I'm right there with you Sparky. This sucks. And if you do live an openly non-believing lifestyle it will either make your wife so angry she leaves you or hurt her so deeply that you wish you were dead.
And your concerns for kids are very valid. I'm going through it now. We haven't hit any milestones yet but my wife and I are both dreading them, which is sad.
And your concerns for kids are very valid. I'm going through it now. We haven't hit any milestones yet but my wife and I are both dreading them, which is sad.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut
Re: Being NOM is the worst
Hugs Sparky!
Being NOM would be a lot worse if we didn't have this board.
Can you take your wife on a mini weekend vacation? You'd get out of church for that weekend.
Being NOM would be a lot worse if we didn't have this board.
Can you take your wife on a mini weekend vacation? You'd get out of church for that weekend.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound
Re: Being NOM is the worst
Been there. Did it for five years and the dam finally broke for me a few months ago. Unfortunately, the residents of the adjacent valley were still at home when the dam broke. The resulting flood hasn't been pretty.
“Some say he’s wanted by the CIA and that he sleeps upside down like a Bat. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”
“Some say that he lives in a tree, and that his sweat can be used to clean precious metals. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”
“Some say that he lives in a tree, and that his sweat can be used to clean precious metals. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”
Re: Being NOM is the worst
Thanks for the commiseration, all. i should clarify that the point I was trying to make from the subject line (but forgot to include in the actual post) is that being NOM is the worst part of the spectrum from resigned exmormon to orthodox believer. A true believer who happens to fit the mold gets great psychological benefit from living their faith, even if it's nonsense. An exmormon who has left it all behind gets to make their own decisions about simple things like what to drink, what clothes to wear, and how to spend a weekend morning, plus they can find a new community where they fit in better. An in-between NOM gets the worst of Mormonism without any of the benefits.
But really I count myself fortunate. My wife was raised much closer to NOM than I was, and for the most part church stuff is just an occasional annoyance, like one of those giant flies at a picnic that lands on your face every few minutes. But sometimes the fly just gets a little too annoying and I have no one else I can talk to about this stuff, so I come vent here.
But really I count myself fortunate. My wife was raised much closer to NOM than I was, and for the most part church stuff is just an occasional annoyance, like one of those giant flies at a picnic that lands on your face every few minutes. But sometimes the fly just gets a little too annoying and I have no one else I can talk to about this stuff, so I come vent here.
Re: Being NOM is the worst
I'm sorry to hear about what you're going through. I've definitely been there myself. Definitely the darkest days in my entire life.
I did it for 8 years, and the dam did break eventually. It ended in divorce. I definitely don't want to be preaching divorce, but if I have any advice to give, it would be to solve this issue BEFORE you have kids. I regret the choice to have kids with her, knowing full well that I was on my way out of the church and she was not going to join me.
Once I came out of the closet, we tried to make it work. I stopped wearing garments and bought... drumroll... boxers!
She never said anything, but there was just an unspoken tension when I would wear them. She would go to "counseling sessions" or something like that with the Bishop. It was obvious they were talking about our situation. I'd see little notes on the fridge that were passages from the scriptures - things about enduring trials or going through tribulation. How does that make me feel, knowing that I am my wife's "trial"?
At one point, we tried counseling. We went to an LDS guy. It was supposed to be non-religious based, and I laid down the ground rules with the counselor that in order for this counseling to work, it needs to be about how to make our marriage work, not about converting me back to Mormonism. That is what it ended up being, so we stopped with that guy. Then I chose a lady, a non-LDS counselor. She was trying to help my wife learn to accept me despite my unbelief. She didn't like her and her approach, so that was the end of counseling.
Like you said - I would have rather taken the blue pill any day. Believing would have been so much easier than breaking up a family. But there was no way I could go through another 15 years till kids were out of the house. But divorce isn't any easier on your kids just because they are out of the house. And then I would have spent over 20 years of my life waiting to divorce someone... what's the point of that? Again - I don't want to persuade someone to end a marriage - but these issues need to be resolved (or at least laid bare on the table with a plan of how to proceed) BEFORE you bring kids into the mix. Once kids are in the picture, that knot in your stomach gets WAY worse.
If you stay in hiding to your spouse - if you just "don't talk church", I'm of the opinion you will always have inner turmoil. You have to open up 100% to your spouse, otherwise you will become more and more closed off as each year passes. By year 8 of our marriage, after "not talking church" for so long, I was so closed off emotionally to her that I already felt like the divorce had taken place years earlier. I just had to sign some papers to make it official. I didn't even need any "healing" from it all - I was just done.
On a brighter note - there is light at the end of the tunnel if you're willing to work for it. "Work for it" might mean staying NOM, while practicing some intense meditation and/or psychotherapy to deal with living within a belief system you don't agree with. It might mean some serious counseling and work on both of your parts to compromise. It might mean leaving your entire NOM life (and possible some relationships) behind and starting over.
Things will get better!!! I promise!
I did it for 8 years, and the dam did break eventually. It ended in divorce. I definitely don't want to be preaching divorce, but if I have any advice to give, it would be to solve this issue BEFORE you have kids. I regret the choice to have kids with her, knowing full well that I was on my way out of the church and she was not going to join me.
Once I came out of the closet, we tried to make it work. I stopped wearing garments and bought... drumroll... boxers!
She never said anything, but there was just an unspoken tension when I would wear them. She would go to "counseling sessions" or something like that with the Bishop. It was obvious they were talking about our situation. I'd see little notes on the fridge that were passages from the scriptures - things about enduring trials or going through tribulation. How does that make me feel, knowing that I am my wife's "trial"? At one point, we tried counseling. We went to an LDS guy. It was supposed to be non-religious based, and I laid down the ground rules with the counselor that in order for this counseling to work, it needs to be about how to make our marriage work, not about converting me back to Mormonism. That is what it ended up being, so we stopped with that guy. Then I chose a lady, a non-LDS counselor. She was trying to help my wife learn to accept me despite my unbelief. She didn't like her and her approach, so that was the end of counseling.
Like you said - I would have rather taken the blue pill any day. Believing would have been so much easier than breaking up a family. But there was no way I could go through another 15 years till kids were out of the house. But divorce isn't any easier on your kids just because they are out of the house. And then I would have spent over 20 years of my life waiting to divorce someone... what's the point of that? Again - I don't want to persuade someone to end a marriage - but these issues need to be resolved (or at least laid bare on the table with a plan of how to proceed) BEFORE you bring kids into the mix. Once kids are in the picture, that knot in your stomach gets WAY worse.
If you stay in hiding to your spouse - if you just "don't talk church", I'm of the opinion you will always have inner turmoil. You have to open up 100% to your spouse, otherwise you will become more and more closed off as each year passes. By year 8 of our marriage, after "not talking church" for so long, I was so closed off emotionally to her that I already felt like the divorce had taken place years earlier. I just had to sign some papers to make it official. I didn't even need any "healing" from it all - I was just done.
On a brighter note - there is light at the end of the tunnel if you're willing to work for it. "Work for it" might mean staying NOM, while practicing some intense meditation and/or psychotherapy to deal with living within a belief system you don't agree with. It might mean some serious counseling and work on both of your parts to compromise. It might mean leaving your entire NOM life (and possible some relationships) behind and starting over.
Things will get better!!! I promise!
Last edited by Galileo on Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Give It Time
- Posts: 1244
- Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:52 pm
Re: Being NOM is the worst
I'm kind of at that point with my son. Losing my testimony was terrible. It was so bad, I refuse to talk to anyone about it if I know they have a testimony. One exception would be my son, because he deserves for us to have as open and honest a relationship as he feels comfortable. He knows I don't believe and basically why. However, I haven't gone to any depth with him. He has a testimony and I told him he needs to start that conversation.
He says he does believe. He barely attends, makes up lame excuses for not attending. I think about what he's been through in this ward and I really can't blame him. We could talk about the offended thing, but if it's again and again and again, I can see how he just is more inclined to feel the spirit at home.
Anyway, my ward did a crap job of supporting me when I divorced. I mean epically bad. We have a new bishop and he's been terrific, so far, yet still not quite getting it. So, I went in and told him a story of my ex's abuse. It was a story of clear, cold, calculated abuse that escalated over time and my ex had/has no remorse over it. It can't be written off as stress or clumsy attempts at meaning well. Unfortunately, I told my sons this story before I told the bishop, in case he let some part of it slip. Again, my bishop was terrific. Truly.
However, it occurred to me this isn't just a church that venerates the family. This is a church that venerates the father. My son basically learned that his father could have killed him. It was intentionally cruel, reckless behavior from his father and, like I said, no remorse. My son now gets to spend the rest of his life listening to lessons that venerate the father and look who his father is. So many blue pills to swallow. If only the previous bishop hadn't been an idiot and gone and proved me right that the priesthood can give some men an inflated sense of entitlement to abuse. If only he hadn't influenced the ward. If only my ex would quit trying to control my life. If only society and my ward understood abuse. If only I had stayed in the marriage and let us continue to be abused. If only the man, himself, wouldn't have given himself permission to abuse. That's a lot of if onlys.
If only all of those had been in place, we wouldn't be here now and here now is kind of a tough place to be. That rose colored perfect/imperfect world I thought I was getting when I married was a con, at least it was for me. However, I'm stronger now. I know more truth, now. Am I concerned about my son and his testimony? You bet! If it crashes, and chances are excellent it will, it will not be pretty. However, I trust my son. He's smart, loving and a pretty together young man. He'll figure it out.
What I truly wish is I hadn't brought my children into this. They're innocent. They deserve better.
He says he does believe. He barely attends, makes up lame excuses for not attending. I think about what he's been through in this ward and I really can't blame him. We could talk about the offended thing, but if it's again and again and again, I can see how he just is more inclined to feel the spirit at home.
Anyway, my ward did a crap job of supporting me when I divorced. I mean epically bad. We have a new bishop and he's been terrific, so far, yet still not quite getting it. So, I went in and told him a story of my ex's abuse. It was a story of clear, cold, calculated abuse that escalated over time and my ex had/has no remorse over it. It can't be written off as stress or clumsy attempts at meaning well. Unfortunately, I told my sons this story before I told the bishop, in case he let some part of it slip. Again, my bishop was terrific. Truly.
However, it occurred to me this isn't just a church that venerates the family. This is a church that venerates the father. My son basically learned that his father could have killed him. It was intentionally cruel, reckless behavior from his father and, like I said, no remorse. My son now gets to spend the rest of his life listening to lessons that venerate the father and look who his father is. So many blue pills to swallow. If only the previous bishop hadn't been an idiot and gone and proved me right that the priesthood can give some men an inflated sense of entitlement to abuse. If only he hadn't influenced the ward. If only my ex would quit trying to control my life. If only society and my ward understood abuse. If only I had stayed in the marriage and let us continue to be abused. If only the man, himself, wouldn't have given himself permission to abuse. That's a lot of if onlys.
If only all of those had been in place, we wouldn't be here now and here now is kind of a tough place to be. That rose colored perfect/imperfect world I thought I was getting when I married was a con, at least it was for me. However, I'm stronger now. I know more truth, now. Am I concerned about my son and his testimony? You bet! If it crashes, and chances are excellent it will, it will not be pretty. However, I trust my son. He's smart, loving and a pretty together young man. He'll figure it out.
What I truly wish is I hadn't brought my children into this. They're innocent. They deserve better.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren
Re: Being NOM is the worst
Yeah, I can also relate. It's not easy especially when you and your spouse are not on the same page. Maybe what can make it tough is when people take it to extremes - from fanatic TBM... to rebelious "anti-mormon." It sounds like you & your wife are a bit more moderate and that's good. At some point- or ideally, gradually, you both will give yourselves permission to reconsider what you believe is most important and if/how it harmonizes with church obligations or not.
I hope the best for you and am glad you shared how you feel with us.
I hope the best for you and am glad you shared how you feel with us.