What are the divisions among the 12?
- oliver_denom
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What are the divisions among the 12?
I heard reference in another thread that there are whisperings about a significant division among the 12 as far as the future direction of the church is involved. Does anyone have any better reference for this and to what those divisions might be? Who are the reformers, and what is their idea of reform?
“You want to know something? We are still in the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages--they haven't ended yet.” - Vonnegut
L'enfer, c'est les autres - JP
L'enfer, c'est les autres - JP
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Re: What are the divisions among the 12?
I don't know, but when I was younger, the church leaders would put signs in their front yards supporting their preferred political candidates. They didn't always agree. I'm sure they had a few laughs over their Sprites and green jello about how this practice impacted the neighbors. Alas, they don't do it, anymore. I know that Mckonkie used to be the token Democrat.oliver_denom wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:30 am I heard reference in another thread that there are whisperings about a significant division among the 12 as far as the future direction of the church is involved. Does anyone have any better reference for this and to what those divisions might be? Who are the reformers, and what is their idea of reform?
I'm sure many would put Uchtdorf in the liberal camp, but he can be surprisingly straight arrow. Oaks can surprise with his speeches about Christ. Oliver, I contemplate this as I write this and if one were to draw a Venn diagram of all their beliefs, I think there'd be a surprising amount of overlap. Perhaps someone can give better info.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren
Re: What are the divisions among the 12?
You might be thinking of Elder Hugh Brown. Bruce McConkie was a Republican, however, his father Oscar McConkie was a Democrat.
Heard that the Brethren have vigorous discussions. Wonder if many of those discussions center around whether to open their eggs from the little or the big end?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha
-- Moksha
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Re: What are the divisions among the 12?
moksha wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:58 amYou might be thinking of Elder Hugh Brown. Bruce McConkie was a Republican, however, his father Oscar McConkie was a Democrat.
Heard that the Brethren have vigorous discussions. Wonder if many of those discussions center around whether to open their eggs from the little or the big end?
Moksha, I know the Oscar Mckonkies and they are staunch Democrat. I've heard many people say all the Mckonkies are Democrat, but Bruce being Republican does explain something and I'll PM you.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren
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Re: What are the divisions among the 12?
The large end is usually where the air pocket is located and is, therefore, easier. I have it on faith promoting rumor that this is the nature of the debate:
Is the easy way the Lord's way because He designed the egg that way and He gave us this blessing and we should enjoy it and open the egg at the large end?
Or
Opening the egg at the large end is the Satan's way, because 1) it's easy and not straight and narrow and 2) the air pocket is not always at the large end and that leads to one being deceived. That can lead to frustration and throwing the egg on the wall, thus destroying the egg, making it Satan's way, because he is the destroyer. Finally, one's wife now has to clean the egg off the wall. She doesn't appreciate it and snaps at one to not blame the egg, God or the Devil for one's jerky behavior. This causes strain in the marriage and is, therefore, of the Devil.
But agreement is reached when
One of them speaks up and says, the woman should always drop the egg in water before cooking it to ensure she is serving her Lord and Master the freshest eggs, every morning. The air pocket is consistently at the large end, making the whole operation easier and facilitates the toast point dipping. Therefore this whole discussion and situation is the woman's fault. She could avoid so much trouble being rained down on her head and the lesson being taught by her having to clean egg off the wall. We'll be sure to include this example as a resource in the next lesson about honoring the priesthood.
Then the wives with a modicum of self respect they've been taught from the cradle to have in order to avoid being raped will angrily look up from canning peaches and sewing bonnets while changing diapers to tell them to
Go baptize your own damned eggs, if you'll notice, we're a little busy here. If you're going to insist that your eggs be baptized every morning before cooking them is honoring your priesthood, then give me the priesthood, because we all know I don't have the authority to dunk those stupid eggs.
Then men really come together and unite to discipline any upstart woman who isn't happy about canning peaches, sewing bonnets and changing diapers while baptizing and cooking eggs and making toast points. The women will now feel inadequate because they can't accomplish all that, or if they can, they don't feel joy in it.
This results in
Most men getting eggs with the air pocket in the correct place.
If the air pocket is in the incorrect place and the egg gets thrown against the wall, it is loving discipline and not unrighteous dominion and the sister will be reminded to go to the temple to remember her covenants.
Sometimes, a perfectly good egg will get thrown against the wall to remind the woman who is in charge. Even if she gives her husband perfect eggs, every morning, he will not appreciate her efforts, but occasionally throw the egg against the wall. It's very important for it to seem random, unpredictable and crazy.
The women will feel inadequate and/or no sense of joy and will be instructed to go to the temple to be reminded of their covenants.
The unrighteous women who just won't shake that pesky self-respect will be disciplined, starting with egg throwing and in ever increasing seriousness until she realizes her eggs-altation is at stake.
All's right with the world.*
*To COB lurkers: as I wrote this post, it started out humorous and I was chuckling as I wrote it. As I kept going, this truly is a story that rings to the truth of my experience, although the item thrown was not eggs. I'm sure I'm not alone and I'm sure we'd all be shocked at how common this is. If this post offends you, I apologise. It offended me to experience it. It was my experience, in every day in varying degrees of seriousness for more than twenty years. Rather than getting angry at the women stuck in the system, get angry at the system. Rather than telling women to have faith because we don't know why things are the way they are, let me tell you that sometimes the thing being thrown against the wall is a human being. Precisely how many people need to be thrown against the wall before we've exhibited enough faith? Again, I'm sorry if this offends. It was offensive to experience it, all of it--including the counsel given--first hand.
I'm going to go write something more uplifting and then I'm going to go do something else.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren
- FreeFallin
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Re: What are the divisions among the 12?
Give It Time, that was funny and real and..... sobering. And especially very, very real. Before mormonism fell apart for me, I had begun to believe in a God who was all about men, who wouldn't answer my pleas because it wasn't in the interest of the man involved - and he was primarily forwarding the purpose and interest of men. I, as a woman, existed for the purpose, benefit, and pleasure of man - not unlike a milk cow as mormon elder Heber Kimball so famously implied.Give It Time wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:55 amThe large end is usually where the air pocket is located and is, therefore, easier. I have it on faith promoting rumor that this is the nature of the debate:
Is the easy way the Lord's way because He designed the egg that way and He gave us this blessing and we should enjoy it and open the egg at the large end?
Or
Opening the egg at the large end is the Satan's way, because 1) it's easy and not straight and narrow and 2) the air pocket is not always at the large end and that leads to one being deceived. That can lead to frustration and throwing the egg on the wall, thus destroying the egg, making it Satan's way, because he is the destroyer. Finally, one's wife now has to clean the egg off the wall. She doesn't appreciate it and snaps at one to not blame the egg, God or the Devil for one's jerky behavior. This causes strain in the marriage and is, therefore, of the Devil.
But agreement is reached when
One of them speaks up and says, the woman should always drop the egg in water before cooking it to ensure she is serving her Lord and Master the freshest eggs, every morning. The air pocket is consistently at the large end, making the whole operation easier and facilitates the toast point dipping. Therefore this whole discussion and situation is the woman's fault. She could avoid so much trouble being rained down on her head and the lesson being taught by her having to clean egg off the wall. We'll be sure to include this example as a resource in the next lesson about honoring the priesthood.
Then the wives with a modicum of self respect they've been taught from the cradle to have in order to avoid being raped will angrily look up from canning peaches and sewing bonnets while changing diapers to tell them to
Go baptize your own damned eggs, if you'll notice, we're a little busy here. If you're going to insist that your eggs be baptized every morning before cooking them is honoring your priesthood, then give me the priesthood, because we all know I don't have the authority to dunk those stupid eggs.
Then men really come together and unite to discipline any upstart woman who isn't happy about canning peaches, sewing bonnets and changing diapers while baptizing and cooking eggs and making toast points. The women will now feel inadequate because they can't accomplish all that, or if they can, they don't feel joy in it.
This results in
Most men getting eggs with the air pocket in the correct place.
If the air pocket is in the incorrect place and the egg gets thrown against the wall, it is loving discipline and not unrighteous dominion and the sister will be reminded to go to the temple to remember her covenants.
Sometimes, a perfectly good egg will get thrown against the wall to remind the woman who is in charge. Even if she gives her husband perfect eggs, every morning, he will not appreciate her efforts, but occasionally throw the egg against the wall. It's very important for it to seem random, unpredictable and crazy.
The women will feel inadequate and/or no sense of joy and will be instructed to go to the temple to be reminded of their covenants.
The unrighteous women who just won't shake that pesky self-respect will be disciplined, starting with egg throwing and in ever increasing seriousness until she realizes her eggs-altation is at stake.
All's right with the world.*
*To COB lurkers: as I wrote this post, it started out humorous and I was chuckling as I wrote it. As I kept going, this truly is a story that rings to the truth of my experience, although the item thrown was not eggs. I'm sure I'm not alone and I'm sure we'd all be shocked at how common this is. If this post offends you, I apologise. It offended me to experience it. It was my experience, in every day in varying degrees of seriousness for more than twenty years. Rather than getting angry at the women stuck in the system, get angry at the system. Rather than telling women to have faith because we don't know why things are the way they are, let me tell you that sometimes the thing being thrown against the wall is a human being. Precisely how many people need to be thrown against the wall before we've exhibited enough faith? Again, I'm sorry if this offends. It was offensive to experience it, all of it--including the counsel given--first hand.
I'm going to go write something more uplifting and then I'm going to go do something else.
It is a painful and honest reminder of where I've been. I'm glad both you and I have found our way out of that system.
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Re: What are the divisions among the 12?
Freefallin, thank you. It was a scary thing, because this is questioning GOD! Then I sat down. God is supposed to be good. God is supposed to be loving. Would He see His daughters enduring this and just shrug? No! I'll bet He's pissed!
I'll tell you why. Childbirth and menopause are bad enough. We hear about childbirth so often, I won't add. I'll talk about menopause. I have a friend who's been having it rough with menopause. So rough, she was diagnosed with BPD! She learned that a lot of women are actually high functioning BPD and don't find out about it until menopause. So, I'd say that childbirth, menopause and a few other things I'm sure other women could mention are bad enough. Those are curse enough. I'm pretty sure a loving God would make sure the women are being treated decently and respectfully and, if conditions would be allowed to continue as long as they have, He'd be cleansing the temple.
----
Crap! I'm sorry for the tangent, Oliver! You know those fasts from Mormonism I go on? I'm going on one. These posts tell me it would be a good idea for me to pull back. I have to confess to methodology. If i get some bit of Mormonism inserting itself in my life during my fast, I'll check in here before resetting the clock. That's what happened here.
Anyway, I'll be resetting the clock, very soon. I hope your thread gets back on track.
I'll tell you why. Childbirth and menopause are bad enough. We hear about childbirth so often, I won't add. I'll talk about menopause. I have a friend who's been having it rough with menopause. So rough, she was diagnosed with BPD! She learned that a lot of women are actually high functioning BPD and don't find out about it until menopause. So, I'd say that childbirth, menopause and a few other things I'm sure other women could mention are bad enough. Those are curse enough. I'm pretty sure a loving God would make sure the women are being treated decently and respectfully and, if conditions would be allowed to continue as long as they have, He'd be cleansing the temple.
----
Crap! I'm sorry for the tangent, Oliver! You know those fasts from Mormonism I go on? I'm going on one. These posts tell me it would be a good idea for me to pull back. I have to confess to methodology. If i get some bit of Mormonism inserting itself in my life during my fast, I'll check in here before resetting the clock. That's what happened here.
Anyway, I'll be resetting the clock, very soon. I hope your thread gets back on track.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren
Re: What are the divisions among the 12?
Seriously though, is there a Q15 more left than Uchtdorf? Who is he mentoring? We have seen Rasbland brown nosing with Eyring. Who is on Uchtdorfs side?
~2bizE
Re: What are the divisions among the 12?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha
-- Moksha
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Re: What are the divisions among the 12?
Give It Time wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:55 amThe large end is usually where the air pocket is located and is, therefore, easier. I have it on faith promoting rumor that this is the nature of the debate:
Is the easy way the Lord's way because He designed the egg that way and He gave us this blessing and we should enjoy it and open the egg at the large end?
Or
Opening the egg at the large end is the Satan's way, because 1) it's easy and not straight and narrow and 2) the air pocket is not always at the large end and that leads to one being deceived. That can lead to frustration and throwing the egg on the wall, thus destroying the egg, making it Satan's way, because he is the destroyer. Finally, one's wife now has to clean the egg off the wall. She doesn't appreciate it and snaps at one to not blame the egg, God or the Devil for one's jerky behavior. This causes strain in the marriage and is, therefore, of the Devil.
But agreement is reached when
One of them speaks up and says, the woman should always drop the egg in water before cooking it to ensure she is serving her Lord and Master the freshest eggs, every morning. The air pocket is consistently at the large end, making the whole operation easier and facilitates the toast point dipping. Therefore this whole discussion and situation is the woman's fault. She could avoid so much trouble being rained down on her head and the lesson being taught by her having to clean egg off the wall. We'll be sure to include this example as a resource in the next lesson about honoring the priesthood.
Then the wives with a modicum of self respect they've been taught from the cradle to have in order to avoid being raped will angrily look up from canning peaches and sewing bonnets while changing diapers to tell them to
Go baptize your own damned eggs, if you'll notice, we're a little busy here. If you're going to insist that your eggs be baptized every morning before cooking them is honoring your priesthood, then give me the priesthood, because we all know I don't have the authority to dunk those stupid eggs.
Then men really come together and unite to discipline any upstart woman who isn't happy about canning peaches, sewing bonnets and changing diapers while baptizing and cooking eggs and making toast points. The women will now feel inadequate because they can't accomplish all that, or if they can, they don't feel joy in it.
This results in
Most men getting eggs with the air pocket in the correct place.
If the air pocket is in the incorrect place and the egg gets thrown against the wall, it is loving discipline and not unrighteous dominion and the sister will be reminded to go to the temple to remember her covenants.
Sometimes, a perfectly good egg will get thrown against the wall to remind the woman who is in charge. Even if she gives her husband perfect eggs, every morning, he will not appreciate her efforts, but occasionally throw the egg against the wall. It's very important for it to seem random, unpredictable and crazy.
The women will feel inadequate and/or no sense of joy and will be instructed to go to the temple to be reminded of their covenants.
The unrighteous women who just won't shake that pesky self-respect will be disciplined, starting with egg throwing and in ever increasing seriousness until she realizes her eggs-altation is at stake.
All's right with the world.*
*To COB lurkers: as I wrote this post, it started out humorous and I was chuckling as I wrote it. As I kept going, this truly is a story that rings to the truth of my experience, although the item thrown was not eggs. I'm sure I'm not alone and I'm sure we'd all be shocked at how common this is. If this post offends you, I apologise. It offended me to experience it. It was my experience, in every day in varying degrees of seriousness for more than twenty years. Rather than getting angry at the women stuck in the system, get angry at the system. Rather than telling women to have faith because we don't know why things are the way they are, let me tell you that sometimes the thing being thrown against the wall is a human being. Precisely how many people need to be thrown against the wall before we've exhibited enough faith? Again, I'm sorry if this offends. It was offensive to experience it, all of it--including the counsel given--first hand.
I'm going to go write something more uplifting and then I'm going to go do something else.
Well this pretty much sums up why I'm so angry.
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Re: What are the divisions among the 12?
It would sure be nice if they would clue in.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren
Re: What are the divisions among the 12?
With grudging apologies to Hannah Last Cornaby and Hymn number 260:
Who's on the Uchtdorf side?
Now is the time to show.
We ask Oaks fearlessly:
Who's on the Uchtdorf side?
We wage this skeptic war,
Cope with this Bednar foe.
Tom Monson now awakes;
Who's on the Uchtdorf side?
Re: What are the divisions among the 12?
I heard this too from Bednar. He hosted a special FHE when I was at BYU-I and he was president. Any way we got to ask him questions but before we did he gave us examples of questions we should ask, and then he proceeded to answer those questions. One of the questions we should have asked was something like: "President Bednar, you are privileged to spend a lot of time with the quorum of the 12, what have you learned in working so closely with the apostles of God?" Part of his response was that they did have really heated discussions sometimes. It kind of shocked me that he told us that. The narrative you get at church is that they are all PSRs and talk to God and God talks through them; so you wouldn't think they would argue. I wonder if Bednar would respond the same way (to his own question ) now that he is one of them?
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound
Re: What are the divisions among the 12?
I don't know, (nor care) what the divisions are amongst the 12.
I have heard, from someone closely associated with them, that they do have heated discussions. That was ~20 years ago, but I doubt much has changed. The rumor also is, that they eventually must all come to a consensus on important things like legal documents, which become endorsed (The Proclamation Against the Family.) They can't come out looking like a deadlocked jury, now can they?
I have heard, from someone closely associated with them, that they do have heated discussions. That was ~20 years ago, but I doubt much has changed. The rumor also is, that they eventually must all come to a consensus on important things like legal documents, which become endorsed (The Proclamation Against the Family.) They can't come out looking like a deadlocked jury, now can they?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus
IDKSAF -RubinHighlander
Gave up who I am for who you wanted me to be...
IDKSAF -RubinHighlander
Gave up who I am for who you wanted me to be...
Re: What are the divisions among the 12?
?
I will open the egg however I damn well please!
From the religious docu-drama Twelve Angry Men.
I will open the egg however I damn well please!
From the religious docu-drama Twelve Angry Men.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha
-- Moksha