My impressions of Islam

[oliver_denom]

This may be a little off topic, but I've been mingling among different groups lately, and recently had the opportunity to attend a couple of talks / lectures from members of the Muslim community concerning Ramadan.

My previous encounters with Islam left a strong impression that it was very similar to Mormonism, and that feeling was really reinforced this week. It's a very patriarchal and conservative religion that has a powerful culture surrounding a very strict religious practice. If not for a number of prejudices, then I think the LDS people and Muslims would find themselves best of friends. The Muslims I've met here in the states seem to share the Mormon concern over public image, and why shouldn't they? It's really pushed them to branch out into the community and show everyone that they're just normal folks and don't need to be feared.

Any criticisms I have of Islam are largely of the same type I have of Mormonism. It's wonderful to have such a tight knit community, but with that comes a severe restriction of personal choice. For example, I've heard from a number of Muslim women who choose the burka or to cover their heads, but choice takes on a different meaning within these types of environments. Choice basically means choosing between being accepted and loved by your community or being rejected. There's such a high cost for non-conformity that freedom becomes a relative term. Sure, they can choose to do other things, but the would also effectively have to leave behind everything and everyone they love. As with fundamentalist Christian religions, of which Mormonism is a type, it's an all or nothing proposition.

Given this, it's often seemed so baffling to me how members of the church fail to grasp the moral principles of religious tolerance. You don't have to accept the precepts of another person's religion, you only have to respect their right and freedom to practice. The fact that there are members of the church who can spew so much venom and hatred toward Islam while simultaneously claiming that they as Mormons are uniquely, and unfairly, under attack, is difficult to square. A person's goodness and worth has absolutely nothing to do with how they pray and where they worship.

[Corsair]

There is a paradox at work when people of different faiths get together and compare beliefs. Any universalizing religion like Islam, Mormonism, Catholcism, Jehovah's Witnesses, and many others has a couple of base assumptions. Among those assumptions is that you are right and everyone else is wrong in some profound way. It's ultimately some kind of moral failing when you don't call that out since everyone reveres the famous, bold prophets of their religion.

Religious tolerance passively points out that every polite believer cannot truly prove that their preferred one true church actually is the One True Church. Tolerance places the ulimate truth of a religion as a subordinate objective to simple politeness. Certainly it's that kind of understanding that most of the believing world needs to realize more frequently.

[Hagoth]

The fact that there are members of the church who can spew so much venom and hatred toward Islam while simultaneously claiming that they as Mormons are uniquely, and unfairly, under attack, is difficult to square.

And this is particularly troublesome when persecution includes the mere existence of the rights of others to maintain their own beliefs, whether they have any effect on you or not.

A particular form of religious intolerance that is seldom recognized is the "tolerance" of others to have their own beliefs simply because you are poised to posthumously convert them to your religion as soon as they kick the bucket. Mormons are often offended when others take offense at having their ancestors and loved ones baptized post-death without permission. The standard response is, "Well, they'll have the right to accept or reject it." I'd like to see what would happen if a branch of fundamental Islam started performing a conversion ritual for Mormons upon death. Or better yet, a baptism into the Church of Satan. Threadjack you say?

I have to say, when I hear moderate, peace-loving Muslims talk about religion and their relationship and obligations to their fellow man it sounds very much like when moderate, peace-loving Christians talk about religion and their relationship and obligations to their fellow man. Moderation in all things.

[BriansThoughtMirror]

That sounds like a fascinating experience! I find it pretty hard to stick myself into a situation like that these days. I think I still worry too much about what other people think, and find it hard to break out of patterns and habits. That said, the Muslims I have met have all been wonderful, sincere people. Also, I think the Muslim spiritual experience may have a lot in common with Mormonism.

These are some Muslim spiritual experiences and conversion stories. I can definitely empathize:
http://testimoniesofotherfaiths.blogspo ... bel/Muslim

[Corsair]

That sounds like a fascinating experience! I find it pretty hard to stick myself into a situation like that these days. I think I still worry too much about what other people think, and find it hard to break out of patterns and habits. That said, the Muslims I have met have all been wonderful, sincere people. Also, I think the Muslim spiritual experience may have a lot in common with Mormonism.

These are some Muslim spiritual experiences and conversion stories. I can definitely empathize:
http://testimoniesofotherfaiths.blogspo ... bel/Muslim

This is a good example of why spiritual experiences are unreliable indicators of truth. I do not at all doubt that people have spiritual experiences. I simply see no reason to use these experiences to guide my search for truth.

[Newme]

I spent the other day with a Muslim friend who, kind of like me, is going the middle way. She explained how a guy she dated (who was a Danish convert) was too extreme for her. She seems to reconize some negative aspects of Islam (like sometimes money isn't handled right), and she hinted about keeping boundaries with her extended family who tend to try to tell her how to live. I have to say I really admire her (& a lot of Muslims) dedication, even if I wouldn't live it to that extent. Fasting for a month every year!? They eat but only a little and after sunset. And as they fast, they develop compassion for those who don't have food or water and they save & give money for the poor.

They're really careful about not harming the body so they don't drink & are discouraged from smoking. Their avoidance of religious icons (like pictures of Jesus or any other person) reminds me how having paintings of a white (middle eastern) Jesus may inspire prejudice and problems with accepting even someone like Jesus if he looked so middle
Eastern.

[Newme]

There is a paradox at work when people of different faiths get together and compare beliefs. Any universalizing religion like Islam, Mormonism, Catholcism, Jehovah's Witnesses, and many others has a couple of base assumptions. Among those assumptions is that you are right and everyone else is wrong in some profound way. It's ultimately some kind of moral failing when you don't call that out since everyone reveres the famous, bold prophets of their religion.

Religious tolerance passively points out that every polite believer cannot truly prove that their preferred one true church actually is the One True Church. Tolerance places the ulimate truth of a religion as a subordinate objective to simple politeness. Certainly it's that kind of understanding that most of the believing world needs to realize more frequently.

Fair point. For anyone to assert a religion like that may involve some self-righteousness. Still, I think that there are some who may embrace a particular religion while deeply understanding it is one valid way of spiritually connecting, out of many, and that just works for them. One thing I like that Buddha taught is to embrace aspects that inspire you from whatever religion you had as a child because that's how you'll tend to spiritually resonate or connect.

My Muslim friend and I used to be roommates, we've travelled together and have been friends for years and we have deep discussions that are very open. She seems to genuinely love people whatever walk of life - and tries to find ways to connect. As she said, "we are all more alike than differences like silly little details of what kind of seasoning you like."

[Corsair]

Fair point. For anyone to assert a religion like that may involve some self-righteousness. Still, I think that there are some who may embrace a particular religion while deeply understanding it is one valid way of spiritually connecting, out of many, and that just works for them. One thing I like that Buddha taught is to embrace aspects that inspire you from whatever religion you had as a child because that's how you'll tend to spiritually resonate or connect.

My Muslim friend and I used to be roommates, we've travelled together and have been friends for years and we have deep discussions that are very open. She seems to genuinely love people whatever walk of life - and tries to find ways to connect. As she said, "we are all more alike than differences like silly little details of what kind of seasoning you like."

I really like the mature appreciation that can develop as you have described with your Muslim friend. This is a spirituality where people can happily acknowledge that each person's path is approrpriate for them even if it does not entirely work for you. But you are still satisfied that your friend is moving in the right direction even when that direction is not one that you are taking.

This kind of idea seems to appear quite naturally over the history of philosophy and religion. Organized religions do not at all appreciate this kind thinking and vainly try to fight against it. Moden Mormonism clearly struggles against it while trying to appear tolerant at the same time.

[Newme]

Fair point. For anyone to assert a religion like that may involve some self-righteousness. Still, I think that there are some who may embrace a particular religion while deeply understanding it is one valid way of spiritually connecting, out of many, and that just works for them. One thing I like that Buddha taught is to embrace aspects that inspire you from whatever religion you had as a child because that's how you'll tend to spiritually resonate or connect.

My Muslim friend and I used to be roommates, we've travelled together and have been friends for years and we have deep discussions that are very open. She seems to genuinely love people whatever walk of life - and tries to find ways to connect. As she said, "we are all more alike than differences like silly little details of what kind of seasoning you like."

I really like the mature appreciation that can develop as you have described with your Muslim friend. This is a spirituality where people can happily acknowledge that each person's path is approrpriate for them even if it does not entirely work for you. But you are still satisfied that your friend is moving in the right direction even when that direction is not one that you are taking.

This kind of idea seems to appear quite naturally over the history of philosophy and religion. Organized religions do not at all appreciate this kind thinking and vainly try to fight against it. Moden Mormonism clearly struggles against it while trying to appear tolerant at the same time.

She is unique I realize and I'm lucky to be her friend, and I think she also respects my different and evolving beliefs.

True. Ie: article of faith #11 (right?).
I've noticed that in some (a lot) of group- thought (religions etc), there's a tendency to consider one's beliefs as if they were objective - while ignoring any subjective thoughts, feelings or actions. This seems to go way back to ancient times when superstitious rituals were not seen as "spiritual" but as practical things that must be done - extremely subjective approach but considered objective (as if a given universal truth).

It's almost like children who cannot distinguish between reality and fantasy. Still, I'd say that some fantasy is good - I mean, having some dreams to motivate and push you - is good. But if it's not balanced with some sense of reality, the motivation is misdirected and things tend to flop.

[Raylan Givens]

I find Muslims fascinating, but the religion is quite scary at times. I think adherents are all over the spectrum in their practice of belief , but their doctrine leaves very little wiggle room, death and destruction are acceptable outcomes for those that threaten their Ideology. This might stem from the idea that the Koran was directly written by God, unlike the Bible that was written by prophets giving the word of God.

I think there are some commonalities in culture, but at least leaving the faith and becoming an apostate won't get you killed in Mormonism, being a Muslim apostate will/could.

I do have to say Mormonism and Islam will probably never have some type of relaxed/reformed movement. It will be all or nothing, you are in or out. I guess people will keep practicing the middle way from both groups from the outside or outskirts.

If I was a former Muslim I would definitely keep it a secret.

[GoodBoy]

Ah, a sensitive topic for me. I work very closely with a lot of Muslim students whom I respect and admire. They have been very welcoming to me, I have eaten with them in their homes, and have prayed with them in their Mosques a few times. They are good and kind people who are similarly convinced that they are right and everyone else is wrong. They have powerful spiritual experiences that convince them that they are right.

I spend a lot of time talking to them about their religious beliefs and cultures which are actually quite diverse depending on what country they come from and what particular brand of Islam they follow. It is a very patriarchal culture that is extremely concerned about female sexuality, but not so much about male sexuality for some reason. They are just like us.

Just like Mormonism, they deserve our respect and tolerance for beliefs that don't hurt people, and they absolutely deserve criticism for their beliefs that do. But they are good people, I am absolutely not afraid of them, and I enjoy working with them.

[2bizE]

I have a friend who is Pakistani American, Muslim who is married to a Vietnamese woman. Both sides of the family have deep traditions and differing faiths. He is a Jack Muslim in that he occasionally drinks. I was close with him when I was a TBM. I now see him differently through my NOM eyes as he was struggling to meet family traditions of Islam, but he really didn't believe. Much like me today. He seemed to figure out a way forward,a middle ground for meeting the family demands from two religious sides, which I have yet to figure out. I see how his struggles of faith resemble mine.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Having devout Muslim coworkers really opened my eyes to how people perceive Mormons especially around the concept of health codes. Going to lunch with them and seeing the discomfort around seeking halal compatible menu choices really made a light bulb come on for me. "Oh! Thats how people thought of me when I refused something based on the word of wisdom". It was the beginning of some serious cognitive dissonance.

[LSOF]

Just like Mormonism, they deserve our respect and tolerance for beliefs that don't hurt people, and they absolutely deserve criticism for their beliefs that do. But they are good people, I am absolutely not afraid of them, and I enjoy working with them.

This is the key.

[moksha]

My Impression of Islam

Achmed - "What say you Moksha, shall we pray or shall we jihad?"
Moksha - "Aiieeyeeee!"

Hey, didn't say it would be a good impression. I do a much better Richard Nixon.

[Raylan Givens]

Just like Mormonism, they deserve our respect and tolerance for beliefs that don't hurt people, and they absolutely deserve criticism for their beliefs that do. But they are good people, I am absolutely not afraid of them, and I enjoy working with them.

This is the key.

I second this, but I am still nervous about how Europe is going to integrate all the new immigrants who do not really want to assimilate to a more secular society

[achilles]

My father is deeply suspicious of Islam. He recently read Glenn Beck's It Is About Islam: Exposing the Truth About Isis, Al-Qaeda, Iran, and the Caliphate. Dad thinks that Muhammad's Angel Gabriel was actually the Angel Lucifer.

[Mad Jax]

My dad thinks the same, as does my step-mom. Everything is an outgrowth of Lucifer's machinations. From Pokemon to cosmological theory.

[1smartdodog]

Islam is like mormonism and its factions. You have some mainstream people who go to church, but also go to work, live in the community and are upstanding citizens. Then you have fundamentalist that oppress women, and cause death and destruction. The question to me is how vigorous do the mainstream believers distance and denounce the crazy ones. I think the Mormon church does a semi decent job of that. I have not seen that so much with Islam, but then maybe I am not paying attention.

Personally I find most religions oppressive, and Islam fights for the top spot, mostly because it affects the most people.

[oliver_denom]

Islam is like mormonism and its factions. You have some mainstream people who go to church, but also go to work, live in the community and are upstanding citizens. Then you have fundamentalist that oppress women, and cause death and destruction. The question to me is how vigorous do the mainstream believers distance and denounce the crazy ones. I think the Mormon church does a semi decent job of that. I have not seen that so much with Islam, but then maybe I am not paying attention.

Personally I find most religions oppressive, and Islam fights for the top spot, mostly because it affects the most people.

I've seen a lot of looking the other way with Mormon polygamist, Cliven Bundy, and the tent city crowds. I think there's a quiet agreement among many active, believing Mormons that these people are doing the right things, just maybe not at the right time or under the right authority. Given different circumstances, they'd be right there in the mix. It's not the "what" they disagree with, it's the "who" and the "when".

I think American Muslims on whole are a lot more liberally minded than Muslims elsewhere. You don't have to hate or persecute people, claim the devil is in them, in order to disagree with their positions. That's where a lot of people seem to have difficulty. They disagree with the tenants of Islam, profoundly, but that doesn't mean their religion needs to be outlawed or demonized.