Be Not Deceived

[Give It Time]

Next week's lesson.

Anecdote about apostasy

Milk stripping
Mis-spelled name
Not able to get a seat for the Kirtland Temple dedication

Reasons for apostasy

Pride
Critical of leaders
Philosophies of men
Rationalizing disobedience

This is a lesson I don't wish to NOM up in my brain. I don't think this one is possible. I have been attending, lately, utlizing a beginner's mind. For example:

Why would I want to limit what I learn?
Why am I happy to be enlisted in a conflict?
Why is war a good thing?
Why don't I just lay down my arms and work for peace?

I may be able to do it with this lesson, but I have a feeling this lesson is just one big shame the doubter festival. I'm halfway hoping I'll be sick and if I am, at all, I'm staying home. However, the bishop and the ward have shown a bit of willingness to work with me and I want to honor that. I also think I'll prevent some negative talk about offending people away from the church if I'm sitting in the room. This was not about someone insulting my haircut. This was abuse and how the ward condoned it. However, it can be spun as offense, so I think I should make myself available for discussion.

Any thoughts and/or coping devices?

[Palerider]

A couple of questions I asked on another forum:

Do you think it's possible for an individual to leave the church because of an honest, heartfelt difference of opinion? Without being sinful?

Are the reasons for leaving that have been laid out by the church the only possible reasons for leaving?

No one wanted to answer these questions, but they needed to be asked.

[Give It Time]

A couple of questions I asked on another forum:

Do you think it's possible for an individual to leave the church because of an honest, heartfelt difference of opinion? Without being sinful?

Are the reasons for leaving that have been laid out by the church the only possible reasons for leaving?

No one wanted to answer these questions, but they needed to be asked.

I've been stirring the pot, too much lately. They do need to be asked and I sense the ward is a different place than it once was. Perhaps someone else will ask it and I'll watch to see if there's a slo-mo train wreck.

[LostGirl]

We already had this lesson. I found it very frustrating. I learned that even when the fact is raised that there is a whole lot more to each of these stories, they didn't seem to care and wrote it all off as justification for sin.

I wish I had the guts to tell them that the real issue here is why people leave the church, and it is not productive to talk about things like milk arguments and mis-spelt names, but that we should be talking about why people are leaving now. The bottom line is that those guys left because they did not agree with church leadership. What should we do when we do not agree with something that church leaders at any level say or do? Especially in light of the fact that history now shows that leaders at all levels are quite capable of making monumental mistakes.

[Give It Time]

We already had this lesson. I found it very frustrating. I learned that even when the fact is raised that there is a whole lot more to each of these stories, they didn't seem to care and wrote it all off as justification for sin.

I wish I had the guts to tell them that the real issue here is why people leave the church, and it is not productive to talk about things like milk arguments and mis-spelt names, but that we should be talking about why people are leaving now. The bottom line is that those guys left because they did not agree with church leadership. What should we do when we do not agree with something that church leaders at any level say or do? Especially in light of the fact that history now shows that leaders at all levels are quite capable of making monumental mistakes.

This is precisely how I felt upon reading this lesson. I found it divisive and unproductive, to say the least. I disagreed with my leadership and my reasons were very sound. My present leader has been much better, but I still believe at the end of the day, he would have worked to keep me in the marriage, because that's what bishops do, because they're following the handbook, because that's what the church leadership dictates, because that's what they believe God dictates.

So, yeah. I disagree with God, then God's right and I'm wrong and I'm supposed to take it on faith, because they don't know why...they don't know why, because they'd rather excommunicate a person for asking the brethren to take a question to the Lord, because following through on a request like that implies they've been wrong and if they're wrong, they're not in communication with God.

Maybe I'll get a sudden whim to go to the airport on Saturday night for the next flight to anywhere, with a return flight on Sunday late afternoon.

[Mormorrisey]

We haven't had this lesson yet, but it was going to be the lesson I would be released for, I had great plans for it. I think I mentioned it in another post, but I planned on bringing up WHY people leave. The Thomas Marsh milk strippings story is the worst, he left because of the Danites and the Mormon retaliation in Missouri, so I planned on bringing that up, and why Oliver and the Whitmers left, over Fanny Alger. So it WOULD have been my last lesson.

Now, if it gets too bad, I'm thinking of commenting how lazy it is intellectually to just jot people leaving down to sin or laziness, when there's real issues for people leaving. And leave it there for them to chew on without mentioning specifics. We'll see how I'm feeling that day. Sister M seems much more content when I just read NOM during church instead of disagreeing with the larger crowd, so I'm liking that dynamic. Church is one big echo chamber anyways - the day I see people actually happy to be there, I might join chamber of echoes, but until then, I'll remain the one discordant note in a symphony of stupid.

[blazerb]

I think the worst of the stories is Frazier Eaton. According to the lesson, he left the church after the temple dedication in 1836. However, he was serving on a high council in Illinois in 1840. (Thanks Allie Oop.)

All the stories are bad, though.

[deacon blues]

Would a person be justified in leaving the church because their conscience tells them that polygamy is wrong? Would a person be justified in asking this question in a gospel doctrine class?

It would be really sad if these and other questions could only be asked behind the doors of a bishops office.

[Give It Time]

I have thought about this lesson, a fair amount, today. The purpose of the lesson is to avoid deception and apostasy. I decided to reframe it in a more positive way. The lesson is really about how to keep your testimony. I'm sure it will surprise some people, but I'm actually okay with that. My testimony going from caterpillar to butterfly has been an excruciating process. As most here know, I've been through some crap experiences. The testimony change I consider to be just as painful and traumatic as those others. It's still in process. I wouldn't wish this process on anyone. So, if members want to keep their testimonies, I'm fine with that.

I started looking at this lesson in terms of the thesis: how to keep my candle burning. I started thinking about things like going to church and praying, scripture study. You know the drill. Anyway, what drove me away was men who exploit the gospel to their advantage and the men who help them. To a certain extent, what would have kept me is people living the gospel more perfectly. However, my thoughts didn't stop there. I was going to ask everyone here, what would have kept you in the gospel. I know I would have gotten a range of answers. To oversimplify the general response would have been, "if it were true".

I thought of how, in the temple, there's that whole bit that no one says out loud about the man eventually becoming the woman's God. I stopped there. Even if all of us treat each other with absolute respect and all the homes are loving paradises​, this doctrine that limits women in perpetuity and it's ramifications would be my sticking point, even if the everyday life outside the temple were absolutely perfect, the doctrines of the CK would eventually drive me away.

Like Pooh Bear, I thunk, thunk, thunk. People would have to live in a bubble where things never went wrong, where people behaved with utmost honor all the time. Not only that, the information would have to be controlled so that people never find out the truth, or other ideas. We're supposed to be gods in embryo, God is omniscient, shouldn't we be thirsting for all knowledge from all sources, as well? It's not that my thesis was unraveling, it wasn't coming together, at all.

It seems to me God would have us have experiences and obtain knowledge and choose him. It seems to me He wouldn't​ have us walking around wearing intellectual and spiritual padding. He wants strong children who have learned to choose Him through the buffetings of life. I'm not advocating any licentious behavior all you COB lurkers, but I don't think God would have us cowering in fear and telling these stories so the members will be afraid to challenge their perceptions and lose or adjust their testimonies is to have them cowering in fear.

Once again, my favorite piece of parental advice found in between minutes 12:19 and 15:00 of the 1980s version of The Three Musketeers comes to mind. I paraphrase: make mistakes, get things wrong, get in binds, make choices, live, laugh, love. I love this advice, because I consider it the type of advice Heavenly Father would have given us when it was time for us to leave His presence.

So, that's where I leave this lesson, at least at this point. If I attend, I'll just sit there and be a symbol of one who made choices. Choices that may scare them, but choices made after copious amounts of tears, study and prayer.

I am too tired to ruffle any feathers, I just won't let this lesson scare me away or get under my skin.

[A New Name]

Can somebody please point me to good references that will debunk each of these stories (Milk, Name, seat at Temple).
I'm not afraid to bring up the full story this Sunday with a little help from my friends!

[MerrieMiss]

Can somebody please point me to good references that will debunk each of these stories (Milk, Name, seat at Temple).
I'm not afraid to bring up the full story this Sunday with a little help from my friends!

I would also like some references that my TBM husband will accept: academic, lds.org, primary sources. So far Radio Free Mormon seems to have the best overall coverage of the issue. Included on the page are links to the info, including: BCC, Juvenile Instructor, LDS.org, Brian Hales.

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/ ... mas-marsh/

[Not Buying It]

Such an ironic title for the lesson.

[blazerb]

Can somebody please point me to good references that will debunk each of these stories (Milk, Name, seat at Temple).
I'm not afraid to bring up the full story this Sunday with a little help from my friends!

Here is a list of the early Mormon branches:
mormonhistoricsites.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/NJ3_Platt.pdf

If you look at the listing for Macedonia, Illinois, you will find that Frazier Eaton was called to the high council there four years after he supposedly left the church because he could not get a seat at the temple dedication.

[deacon blues]

I have thought about this lesson, a fair amount, today. The purpose of the lesson is to avoid deception and apostasy. I decided to reframe it in a more positive way. The lesson is really about how to keep your testimony. I'm sure it will surprise some people, but I'm actually okay with that. My testimony going from caterpillar to butterfly has been an excruciating process. As most here know, I've been through some crap experiences. The testimony change I consider to be just as painful and traumatic as those others. It's still in process. I wouldn't wish this process on anyone. So, if members want to keep their testimonies, I'm fine with that.

I started looking at this lesson in terms of the thesis: how to keep my candle burning. I started thinking about things like going to church and praying, scripture study. You know the drill. Anyway, what drove me away was men who exploit the gospel to their advantage and the men who help them. To a certain extent, what would have kept me is people living the gospel more perfectly. However, my thoughts didn't stop there. I was going to ask everyone here, what would have kept you in the gospel. I know I would have gotten a range of answers. To oversimplify the general response would have been, "if it were true".

I thought of how, in the temple, there's that whole bit that no one says out loud about the man eventually becoming the woman's God. I stopped there. Even if all of us treat each other with absolute respect and all the homes are loving paradises​, this doctrine that limits women in perpetuity and it's ramifications would be my sticking point, even if the everyday life outside the temple were absolutely perfect, the doctrines of the CK would eventually drive me away.

Like Pooh Bear, I thunk, thunk, thunk. People would have to live in a bubble where things never went wrong, where people behaved with utmost honor all the time. Not only that, the information would have to be controlled so that people never find out the truth, or other ideas. We're supposed to be gods in embryo, God is omniscient, shouldn't we be thirsting for all knowledge from all sources, as well? It's not that my thesis was unraveling, it wasn't coming together, at all.

It seems to me God would have us have experiences and obtain knowledge and choose him. It seems to me He wouldn't​ have us walking around wearing intellectual and spiritual padding. He wants strong children who have learned to choose Him through the buffetings of life. I'm not advocating any licentious behavior all you COB lurkers, but I don't think God would have us cowering in fear and telling these stories so the members will be afraid to challenge their perceptions and lose or adjust their testimonies is to have them cowering in fear.

Once again, my favorite piece of parental advice found in between minutes 12:19 and 15:00 of the 1980s version of The Three Musketeers comes to mind. I paraphrase: make mistakes, get things wrong, get in binds, make choices, live, laugh, love. I love this advice, because I consider it the type of advice Heavenly Father would have given us when it was time for us to leave His presence.

So, that's where I leave this lesson, at least at this point. If I attend, I'll just sit there and be a symbol of one who made choices. Choices that may scare them, but choices made after copious amounts of tears, study and prayer.

I am too tired to ruffle any feathers, I just won't let this lesson scare me away or get under my skin.

You have made some perceptive observations here. In order to exercise our agency we need to have a balanced presentation of information, and a balanced perspective. The LDS church avoids this as much as possible, or so it seems to me.

[Give It Time]

I'd say you're about right.

[Vlad the Emailer]

Such an ironic title for the lesson.

No kidding.

This actually gives some of the real reasons for Marsh's apostasy, but also references the milk strippings story.

https://history.lds.org/article/revelat ... g=eng&_r=1

Then there's Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_B._Marsh

And John Hamer in By Common Consent:

https://bycommonconsent.com/2009/07/01/ ... ham-young/

[Corsair]

I love this discussion. But I am still debating if I should skip this class in my ward in favor of going to Starbucks. I'm not sure which one will get me in more trouble, but I will probably risk going for the one involving less caffeine and more worried looks from the bishop.

[Rob4Hope]

I just plowed through this thread.

Its ironic to me the church talks so much about truth being essential--we can't get to heaven any faster than we can gain truth and knowledge--that sort of thing, and then they obfuscate the historical record in favor of a narrative that is flat out false.

"church leader talk with forked tongue..."

Good thing truth is what they say it is, not what really happened.

I wish that worked for me..... Hummmm...lets see.....

"I paid my tax, and the government owes me millions of dollars." MUST BE TRUE,..I SAID it.

"I didn't run that stop sign. The cop just gave me that ticket because he was persecuting me because of my nice car." MUST BE TRUE,...I SAID IT.

"I never drank that beer in the hot sunshine because it was really nice. It wasn't beer...'i didn't inhale!'" MUST BE TRUE,...I SAID IT...

And these are stupid. Think of what I could come up with!?????


PS. "Joseph didn't have sex with any of his polyandrus wives."....MUST BE TRUE,...BRIAN HALES SAID IT!....

[Palerider]

Being deceived or in the clutches of Satan has been the go to cultural tool employed by Joseph from the beginning. He used it on anyone who threatened his power. Along with being accused of adultery or fornication, these two hammers have been used to pound down any opposition or thorough look at the realities and the men that were hidden behind the curtain.

Cultural shaming.

To attempt to "get along" in an institution that uses these tools of psychological coercion seems to me to put us in conflict with our own sense of justice and honest investigation. I don't think one can be truly happy while living in a duality of character. Something about "to thine own self be true" comes to mind.

Women are particularly vulnerable.

There is no top tier woman they can go to in order to plead their case or seek understanding. At the top is always a male who holds ultimate authority. Which is fine by me if you're God. I trust in God. But there is no mediator between God and man(kind) except Christ. Therefore ANYONE who sets themselves up between Christ and ourselves would have to have major and very powerful credentials.

Not some hokie story about some sad little book that no one can see, that really wants to be scripture but just doesn't make it. So when you see someone like this, trying to put themselves between you and God and while in the scam of creating "revelation" they make God look like a clown..........RUN AWAY as fast as you can.

And I'm certainly not down on males in general. Most of us are doing the best we know how and are very well intentioned. We want to get it right. Which if we're not careful can be our downfall. Because that's what the church sells to men. You get to be "right" not necessarily righteous but "right". If I follow the rules, if I follow the handbook, if I follow the guy ahead of me I get to be right. I don't have to actually think about it. I can relax and know that I did the right thing because everything around me tells me I did. It's great being right. Following the "spirit" is great as long as you follow the handbook, which was written by the spirit.

And the handbook, my superiors, and my culture says that people who question or doubt and don't come up with the "right" answers are deceived. See how that works! Doubters are "not right". They may be kind, honest, scripture reading, tithe paying, church attending, have love for their fellow man, be charitable, have testimonies of Christ......and still not be right if they doubt Joseph Smith and the "authority" that presumes to come through him. And because they are WRONG in this aspect, they will not be saved in the CK.

You see how safe it is to be right?

[Rob4Hope]

Being deceived or in the clutches of Satan has been the go to cultural tool employed by Joseph from the beginning. He used it on anyone who threatened his power. Along with being accused of adultery or fornication, these two hammers have been used to pound down any opposition or thorough look at the realities and the men that were hidden behind the curtain.

Cultural shaming.

To attempt to "get along" in an institution that uses these tools of psychological coercion seems to me to put us in conflict with our own sense of justice and honest investigation. I don't think one can be truly happy while living in a duality of character. Something about "to thine own self be true" comes to mind.

Women are particularly vulnerable.

There is no top tier woman they can go to in order to plead their case or seek understanding. At the top is always a male who holds ultimate authority. Which is fine by me if you're God. I trust in God. But there is no mediator between God and man(kind) except Christ. Therefore ANYONE who sets themselves up between Christ and ourselves would have to have major and very powerful credentials.

Not some hokie story about some sad little book that no one can see, that really wants to be scripture but just doesn't make it. So when you see someone like this, trying to put themselves between you and God and while in the scam of creating "revelation" they make God look like a clown..........RUN AWAY as fast as you can.

And I'm certainly not down on males in general. Most of us are doing the best we know how and are very well intentioned. We want to get it right. Which if we're not careful can be our downfall. Because that's what the church sells to men. You get to be "right" not necessarily righteous but "right". If I follow the rules, if I follow the handbook, if I follow the guy ahead of me I get to be right. I don't have to actually think about it. I can relax and know that I did the right thing because everything around me tells me I did. It's great being right. Following the "spirit" is great as long as you follow the handbook, which was written by the spirit.

And the handbook, my superiors, and my culture says that people who question or doubt and don't come up with the "right" answers are deceived. See how that works! Doubters are "not right". They may be kind, honest, scripture reading, tithe paying, church attending, have love for their fellow man, be charitable, have testimonies of Christ......and still not be right if they doubt Joseph Smith and the "authority" that presumes to come through him. And because they are WRONG in this aspect, they will not be saved in the CK.

You see how safe it is to be right?

PailRider,...for a long time, it was the dichotomy, created and at the same time denied by the church, of "right" and "true" that has confused me for most of my life. As a child I would wonder when I heard things that didn't seem right inside. I didn't understand--but I just figured I was young and didn't understand things. For someone once asked me this (before 1978): What happens to a black child, obviously born under the curse of Cain, who dies before they are 8 years old? ..... Hunh?....what DOES happens? Seems strange that a child would come through the linage of Cain (as I was taught), be cursed for being non-valiant, and at the same time be saved.

I didn't think much about this because I was young, didn't know any black people anyway, and at the same time was happy just doing my thing. But something stuck in me--there was an initial pebble being added to my shelf.

Then, I began to wonder about other things that didn't make a lot of sense. For example, I use to wonder about the conflict between what was best, and what was right...when those two things didn't mesh. For example, if someone was thirsting to death and the only thing to drink was beer. Do you die?...or do you drink the beer? I remember hearing GA talks about: "I have never touched a drop of coffee. I have never touched a cigarette." I knew I didn't qualify because I smoked a cig with a friend at school once. So, that forever was a lost blessing (which bothered me)....but I wondered. Because in my young mind, the hard and fast rule sometimes didn't seem to fit situational reality.

When I asked my question, the general response was: "Oh, you have never been in that situation have you?...so why ask the question?...you don't need to concern yourself with that." But I DID concern myself--because I wanted to know.

Then, the biggest, most subtle, and yet most damning (and I mean DAMNING literally, as in stopping cold) concern emerged: when hard questions arose, the ONLY answer was: "Don't think about it. Just follow the prophet." This stopped all thought, all questioning, and all learning. Just follow the prophet? But wait...HE ISN"T ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS?!

Pebbles became boulders, and soon there wasn't enough room on the shelf to store, let alone support the concerns. The shelf cracked.

ONLY THEN (and after the shelf broke) did I discover so much more I had no idea about. Truth is not the goal. The goal--the objective of the Q15 and the church--is to use the idea of leading you to Christ as a hook to "lead you". They don't lead to Christ,...they just want to "lead". They want you to believe them, follow them, adore them, respect them, pay them, honor them, and by all means, NEVER question them. Their goal is to "lead".

Truth is not the goal. Teaching the truth is not the goal. The goal is as I've stated,..to "lead"...wherever that may be.