What's up with BYU?

[SeeNoEvil]

Yesterday I called a pizza place in Provo to order a pizza for a friend who lives there. She had her ID and bank card stolen and couldn't cash her check without it and her new cards and ID hadn't arrived in the mail yet, check was put on hold at the bank since she had no ID and her food situation was getting tight. I said, "how about I order you a pizza!" It sounded like a good plan at the time but whoa I was quite the hassle!

I called a pizza place in Provo to have a pizza delivered to her. They told me they would not let me order her a pizza using a credit/debit card over the phone. Reason being that due to so much credit card fraud from BYU students they would not take my credit card over the phone. I was told I needed to present it in person at the door when the pizza was delivered. I could go on line and order and place my information there but still I would have to show my card and ID when the pizza was delivered. Problem: I live in another state. After several holds, re-telling my story 3 times over I finally got a manager who patiently listened to my story as to why I really needed to order this pizza. He finally accepted my information. Pizza got delivered and friend is full! Mission accomplished!

Whew! I have worked retail. I get why I was given the run around and grateful for the manager who made an acception. But something here doesn't add up! Credit card fraud problem at BYU!! Mormons? What's happened to their squeaky clean image? This reminded me of my bishop boss at my old job in UT who refused to hire any BYU student because they were unreliable and the Provo store owner who I talked to who said she wouldn't hire them either because they always stole from her. I asked a BYU professor friend and he said it is a huge problem at BYU which he was well aware of but would not comment further. So much for Mormon honesty! Does anyone care to take a stab at explaining what might be happening here at BYU?

[Thoughtful]

I started a thread a few weeks ago about belief being profitable. My guess is they learned from their parents.

[Red Ryder]

It's a human problem that occurs when desperate people are in desperate situations.
If I was a small business owner surrounded by a bunch of starving, sex deprived, under caffeinated kids, I would probably require a card and ID too. Or cash only. There's not enough dough to fund the starving cougar club without compensation.

I've always wondered why the temple lockers need a lock and key? My MIL is a temple worker and has complained about the amount of theft that occurs in the temple. It's so bad that when they went to do a session and the temple was full and no lockers were available, they decided to leave and come back later that night. Ironically, she also complains about the people that poop on the bathroom floor.

If you need a "successful with less hassle" pizza ordering story please pm me for my address. I like just about every kind of pizza if you want to order again.

[SeeNoEvil]

I started a thread a few weeks ago about belief being profitable. My guess is they learned from their parents.

I think this may be so in a lot of cases. What I notice now since I have left the church and can view Mormon life from outside the dome Mormons seem to be on stage. They must be happy, successful, look right, act right, speak right and be perfect. All must look a certain way. Behind closed does they are something else. Could the indoctrination that we are superior because we belong to the one true church be creating people who feel entitled?

[SeeNoEvil]

"Red Ryder" post_id=18814 time=1498089736 user_id=55
It's a human problem that occurs when desperate people are in desperate situations. If I was a small business owner surrounded by a bunch of starving, sex deprived, under caffeinated kids, I would probably require a card and ID too. Or cash only. There's not enough dough to fund the starving cougar club without compensation.

This! This!

I've always wondered why the temple lockers need a lock and key? My MIL is a temple worker and has complained about the amount of theft that occurs in the temple. It's so bad that when they went to do a session and the temple was full and no lockers were available, they decided to leave and come back later that night. Ironically, she also complains about the people that poop on the bathroom floor.

Poop!!! ewwwwww! That is just disgusting. You have to tell us more stories!

If you need a "successful with less hassle" pizza ordering story please pm me for my address. I like just about every kind of pizza if you want to order again.

I promise when hell freezes over and I return to UT for a visit I'll look you up. We'll gather the UT NOMites and go for pizza and beer!

[Not Buying It]

Part of it is that the Church put such a heavy emphasis on some things, especially the things that are kind of "Mormony" - Word of Wisdom, law of chastity, tithing - it becomes easy to feel like you are a good Mormon if you don't drink or smoke, attend your meetings, and pay your tithing, no matter what else you do. The Temple Recommend questions reinforce certain behaviors that are to some extent uniquely Mormon, and so those are the things people focus on. You have a small set of behaviors that define you as a "good Mormon", and so some people think they can do anything that isn't in that small set of behaviors and still be a "good Mormon".

[Korihor]

I attended BYU in 2005-2007. By far they were the biggest sticklers for ID, credit card verification, and every other rule following process. And That was BYU itself, the surrounding businesses were nearly just as bad.

It would surprise me the hoops I had to jump through just to buy an ice cream from BYU creamery.

[blazerb]

Part of it is that the Church put such a heavy emphasis on some things, especially the things that are kind of "Mormony" - Word of Wisdom, law of chastity, tithing - it becomes easy to feel like you are a good Mormon if you don't drink or smoke, attend your meetings, and pay your tithing, no matter what else you do. The Temple Recommend questions reinforce certain behaviors that are to some extent uniquely Mormon, and so those are the things people focus on. You have a small set of behaviors that define you as a "good Mormon", and so some people think they can do anything that isn't in that small set of behaviors and still be a "good Mormon".

Even among the temple recommend questions, there is a hierarchy of "Mormony." If I confessed to drinking tea, I don't think any leader would give me a recommend. However in every interview, I always answer the "honest in your dealings" question with, "I try." There is always a smile, and we're moving on to the next question. No one every asks follow-up questions to make sure I'm not embezzling or doing con jobs or stealing in the temple locker room. Sometimes I have gotten a response like, "That's all we can do." Honesty is not valued like chastity or avoiding tea and heroine.

[Silver Girl]

This sounds like the observations about the widespread MLMs in the church. The church rewards big shots. It rewards dishonesty. It rewards people who look wealthy, even if they aren't. I would not be surprised if credit card fraud was part of the underground culture, because it's a way of cutting corners and reaching a goal without paying your dues. The instance would not have to be a majority in the BYU area for a business to restrict credit cards, but it appears to have been high enough to get the attention of corporate accountants.

Several of the wards in my area have families living well above their incomes. They're paying for rent with credit cards so they can live in preferred school districts, ward boundaries or neighborhoods. I lost track of the number of pest control or alarm businesses I heard about, but I thought, gosh, those have become popular with members. Turns out those are MLMs, too. I know people who lost their homes because they worked for other members who ended up not paying their salaries and also not paying creditors. This stuff happens, and then the scammers move out of town. But they're "members," and they gain trust in other wards in other states.

I know the vast majority of members are honest and hard working, but even a few years before I read the essays and resigned, I realized the instances of conning, MLMs, major Ponzi schemes and other scams was higher than in any other population I'd seen. I've been in other churches during my life, and I have never seen this elsewhere.

The church rewarded JS for being dishonest (yes, he fooled people, but there's a legacy of honoring him). I honestly think there are some in the church who end up believing they can and should cut corners to get ahead. I also think the ratio within the membership is higher than in many other populations. Just look at the Q-15...

[moksha]

Does anyone care to take a stab at explaining what might be happening here at BYU?

1. BYU students are both prophetic and entrepreneurial.
2. BYU students are undercaffeinated.
3. Satan is in the Provo City water system.

[Fifi de la Vergne]

I work for a Jesuit university and was telling my uber TBM SIL about my experiences here. I actually like working at a faith-based organization where there is an emphasis on service and the mission of the university. She listened somewhat dubiously and then asked whether the school teaches morality. She meant morality in the Mormon sense, of course, which is purely about sex, which must be married, monogamous, and straight. I had to pause for a moment to realize that while I hear a lot about service and integrity and inclusiveness, in two years I haven't come across anything that addresses what the average Mormon would consider "morality." She was dismissive about everything I said after I told her that -- but as a BYU grad and refugee from Mormonism, I find it refreshing.

Part of it is that the Church put such a heavy emphasis on some things, especially the things that are kind of "Mormony" - Word of Wisdom, law of chastity, tithing - it becomes easy to feel like you are a good Mormon if you don't drink or smoke, attend your meetings, and pay your tithing, no matter what else you do. The Temple Recommend questions reinforce certain behaviors that are to some extent uniquely Mormon, and so those are the things people focus on. You have a small set of behaviors that define you as a "good Mormon", and so some people think they can do anything that isn't in that small set of behaviors and still be a "good Mormon".

I have to agree with NBI -- for a lot of Mormons the only standard that counts is about the behaviors associated with the temple recommend.

[oliblish]

When I was at BYU in the early 80s there was someone on my floor at Deseret Towers that wrote enough bad checks that the police were after him. He skipped town and was hiding out in Texas until one of his close friends turned him in. I'm didn't hear what happened to him after that.

[Korihor]

Does anyone care to take a stab at explaining what might be happening here at BYU?

1. BYU students are both profitic and entrepreneurial.
2. BYU students are undercaffeinated.
3. Satan is in the Provo City water system.

FTFY

[deacon blues]

The temple recommend interviews reward dishonesty. I'm sure most LDS/BYU students are honest, but that doesn't stop the liars, or the hypocrites. They(church leaders) haven't figured out what Jesus was trying to say in the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican. (Luke 18)

[LostMormon]

I don't know that we can blame it all on corrupt mormon culture, or the lack of caffeine, and sex. I do believe the TR forces most of us to lie, and we kind of get used to that behaviour, however most Mormons I know are pretty good people. I think Mormon culture tends to attract this sort of person due to the typical trusting nature of most members, especially if they can get in good at the ward level. It may be that BYU is seen as an easy target for this type of crime.

[Advocate]

Sometimes I think the non-trusting nature of BYU (and the church to some degree) make things worse. I went to BYU for my undergraduate work and attended graduate school at a public university in the Eastern United States. Both universities had honor codes, but the way they were administered was quite different.

At BYU the honor code meant taking a test in a restricted access testing center with proctors walking around to ensure no cheating.

At the other public university the honor code meant taking a test in your regular classroom with no proctor, professor, or any authority in the room at all. We took our tests on personal laptops with no "testing" software installed meaning you had unrestricted access to the internet during the test.

I'm sure both universities have some cheating, but I don't think that asking people to do the right thing while you closely monitor them leads to any sort of personal, moral growth.

[Corsair]

If I was a small business owner surrounded by a bunch of starving, sex deprived, under caffeinated kids, I would probably require a card and ID too. Or cash only. There's not enough dough to fund the starving cougar club without compensation.

My capitalism just overcame my belief system and forced me to think about all the kinds of economic opportunities that naturally arise from a captive audience of "starving, sex deprived, under caffeinated kids". I suppose any college town has businesses that cater to that crowd. It's just that BYU schools have the added need for "discretion" when serving these fundamental desires. Still, as the saying goes, "In God We Trust: All Others Pay Cash".

[SeeNoEvil]

I don't know that we can blame it all on corrupt mormon culture, or the lack of caffeine, and sex. I do believe the TR forces most of us to lie, and we kind of get used to that behaviour, however most Mormons I know are pretty good people. I think Mormon culture tends to attract this sort of person due to the typical trusting nature of most members, especially if they can get in good at the ward level. It may be that BYU is seen as an easy target for this type of crime.

Part of it is that the Church put such a heavy emphasis on some things, especially the things that are kind of "Mormony" - Word of Wisdom, law of chastity, tithing - it becomes easy to feel like you are a good Mormon if you don't drink or smoke, attend your meetings, and pay your tithing, no matter what else you do. The Temple Recommend questions reinforce certain behaviors that are to some extent uniquely Mormon, and so those are the things people focus on. You have a small set of behaviors that define you as a "good Mormon", and so some people think they can do anything that isn't in that small set of behaviors and still be a "good Mormon".

Even among the temple recommend questions, there is a hierarchy of "Mormony." If I confessed to drinking tea, I don't think any leader would give me a recommend. However in every interview, I always answer the "honest in your dealings" question with, "I try." There is always a smile, and we're moving on to the next question. No one every asks follow-up questions to make sure I'm not embezzling or doing con jobs or stealing in the temple locker room. Sometimes I have gotten a response like, "That's all we can do." Honesty is not valued like chastity or avoiding tea and heroine.

This!! but then again it could be something in the water as Moksha suggested.