For those who believe in God,...is he a jerk or nice?

[Rob4Hope]

I am amazed at how much my concept of God is interwoven with the LDS faith.

I've tried on Atheism, Agnosticism, Christianity, and I am even thinking about Islam and other choices. I am settling more toward agnosticism, primarily because of the Near Death Experience literature out there that is overwhelming in volume, relative consistency, and especially when children are those who report. Something is going on--some type of psychic experience which (if you ask me), according to Occam's Razor, may be simply: "they had a soul that left their body and continued on."

Anyway,..the point is this: as I move through my faith struggle, looking to settle a legitimate need I have, I am often bamboozeled by the infiltration of LDS theology in my concept of God.

It goes like this (in no particular order and not an exhaustive list):

1. Since God commanded JS to take multiple wives, and threatened Emma with destruction if she didn't accept it, he is a jerk.
2. Since God commanded BY to teach and practice Blood Atonement, he is a jerk.
3. Since God gave license to the Q15 to tell lies, and then holds the average LDS member accountable for their honesty, he has a mixed standard and is a jerk.
4. Since God commanded the ancient Israelites to kill all the babies of the phylistines, he held them accountable for their parent's choices, and children are NOT innocent, so he is a jerk...

I could go on for PAGES!...

but, the problem is my concept of God is now waffling between two not very nice choices: he is completely aloof and doesn't give a sh!t about people; he is a jerk.

Anyone got some personal perspective on this they can share?

[Give It Time]

I am amazed at how much my concept of God is interwoven with the LDS faith.

I've tried on Atheism, Agnosticism, Christianity, and I am even thinking about Islam and other choices. I am settling more toward agnosticism, primarily because of the Near Death Experience literature out there that is overwhelming in volume, relative consistency, and especially when children are those who report. Something is going on--some type of psychic experience which (if you ask me), according to Occam's Razor, may be simply: "they had a soul that left their body and continued on."

Anyway,..the point is this: as I move through my faith struggle, looking to settle a legitimate need I have, I am often bamboozeled by the infiltration of LDS theology in my concept of God.

It goes like this (in no particular order and not an exhaustive list):

1. Since God commanded JS to take multiple wives, and threatened Emma with destruction if she didn't accept it, he is a jerk.
2. Since God commanded BY to teach and practice Blood Atonement, he is a jerk.
3. Since God gave license to the Q15 to tell lies, and then holds the average LDS member accountable for their honesty, he has a mixed standard and is a jerk.
4. Since God commanded the ancient Israelites to kill all the babies of the phylistines, he held them accountable for their parent's choices, and children are NOT innocent, so he is a jerk...

I could go on for PAGES!...

but, the problem is my concept of God is now waffling between two not very nice choices: he is completely aloof and doesn't give a sh!t about people; he is a jerk.

Anyone got some personal perspective on this they can share?

As my testimony unraveled and I realized the God personified in the scriptures and the temple is a misogynistic, abusive jerk and no one I can worship. At first, as I was still very much inculcated in the LDS perspective, I voluntarily relinquished the idea of being in the Celestial Kingdom. The threat of a lower kingdom held no sway over me.

As I progressed on this journey, I went back to my spiritual roots. By that, I mean I searched for the things from my earliest memories that resonated with me. I remember hearing God is bigger than the whole universe, yet small enough to fit in your heart. Yes, I heard that on The Brady Bunch, but I must have had a convert for a teacher when I was young, because I remember being told that at church.

Another thing I remember was being told of a man who lived in Nazareth, long ago. That man taught about loving our neighbors, doing unto others, being kind. That resonated in a big way.

I also paid attention to what I had always fought with when I believed. Easy, peasy. Polygamy never sat well. Inequality never sat well. Aspects of the word of wisdom just made no sense whatsoever.

I started listening to my own conscience. What worked, what resonated.

I've continued to search, because no religion fits comfortably. I'm currently learning about Taoism. In the Tao Te Ching, it states the universe is pragmatic. The bad things that happen to you are not personal, the universe is just doing what it needs to survive. Let me tell you. That was rough to read. The passage goes on to say that because the universe is pragmatic, we all need to be compassionate with one another. Well, that's a little better. However, I let that thought sit. Unlike the western view of God, in the idea of a pragmatic universe, there's no lesson being taught. I'm not burning off karma. I'm not suffering the wages of sin. There's no big picture to step back and understand. The universe doesn't mean to offend, doesn't mean to pick on me. This is just what is necessary for the universe to survive.

Want to have things go smoother? Align yourself with the universe. When I considered this, it kind of made sense. Since I've been incorporating it, my life has gone smoother. My life still is far from perfect, as my recent posts will indicate, but these obstacles are more like speed bumps than unpaved mountain. Yes, I have to navigate and adjust, but it's so much easier.

So, that's where I am, now. To answer your question, I see God as some sort of essence as described by the mainstream Christian view of God or some sort of source or energy. In my current view that God is more like the latter, God really does stop being a jerk and becomes an entity that is simply taking care of business. Sometimes things will go my way, sometimes they won't. If things are rough, is there some way I could have been more yielding to smooth the path before me? There probably is and I simply adjust course and move on. No beating myself up about how I should have done things differently, no shame, no guilt. Just be like water and move around the obstacle.

This is just a random thing at the end. As far as moral guidance, j really love the Wiccan Rede:

An' it harm none, do what you will.

[wtfluff]

How do we even know god is a "he"?

[Give It Time]

How do we even know god is a "he"?

Good question. I don't think of God in terms of gender. If I do say "he", it's in the gender neutral sense. I think we should create a new gender neutral pronoun that isn't​ also used for things.

[2bizE]

How do we even know god is a "he"?

Because bible traditions tell us so.

[Fifi de la Vergne]

I'm sitting in my favorite chair with a hot cup of my favorite blend of coffee, looking out at a beautiful morning. The sun is sparkling on the leaves of our peach trees, which are laden with ripening peaches. On the ground next to the peach trees are the limbs of an oak that cracked and blew down in a terrific storm the other night . Tornadoes touched down, and a couple of miles south of us several homes were destroyed. There are families in our ward who are still without power. And yet, it is a truly beautiful morning.

A couple of years ago, a beloved child killed himself. He was bright, sensitive, funny. We were close; I will never get over that loss. And yet, I am profoundly moved by the beauty of this morning. Somehow there is place in me for both the unceasing heartache of his death and the joy that this morning calls forth.

One of the things I've gained since rejecting Mormonism is a greater acceptance of complexity and paradox. Daughter and I drove around after the storm, marveling at an uprooted tree, the huge limbs that had snapped and fallen. We weren't gawking at misfortune but rather feeling awe at the power of nature. It's akin to the awe I felt when looking at my newborn child and pondering the processes that unfolded in the creation of life. The night brought a storm that ripped the roofs from homes and downed trees; the morning brought neighbors armed with goodwill and chainsaws, eager to help the process of cleanup and repair. Life is both terrible and beautiful.

I don't know what god is anymore. There is power in the universe that something in me responds to and before which I feel both humble and exalted. The stories in the bible are just that . . . They are someone else's stories, someone else's attempt to make sense of the force they perceived in the universe. I no longer feel any obligation to accept those interpretations.

I look at the dappled light in my yard and I think of my sweet son. I take another sip of coffee.

[Give It Time]

I'm sitting in my favorite chair with a hot cup of my favorite blend of coffee, looking out at a beautiful morning. The sun is sparkling on the leaves of our peach trees, which are laden with ripening peaches. On the ground next to the peach trees are the limbs of an oak that cracked and blew down in a terrific storm the other night . Tornadoes touched down, and a couple of miles south of us several homes were destroyed. There are families in our ward who are still without power. And yet, it is a truly beautiful morning.

A couple of years ago, a beloved child killed himself. He was bright, sensitive, funny. We were close; I will never get over that loss. And yet, I am profoundly moved by the beauty of this morning. Somehow there is place in me for both the unceasing heartache of his death and the joy that this morning calls forth.

One of the things I've gained since rejecting Mormonism is a greater acceptance of complexity and paradox. Daughter and I drove around after the storm, marveling at an uprooted tree, the huge limbs that had snapped and fallen. We weren't gawking at misfortune but rather feeling awe at the power of nature. It's akin to the awe I felt when looking at my newborn child and pondering the processes that unfolded in the creation of life. The night brought a storm that ripped the roofs from homes and downed trees; the morning brought neighbors armed with goodwill and chainsaws, eager to help the process of cleanup and repair. Life is both terrible and beautiful.

I don't know what god is anymore. There is power in the universe that something in me responds to and before which I feel both humble and exalted. The stories in the bible are just that . . . They are someone else's stories, someone else's attempt to make sense of the force they perceived in the universe. I no longer feel any obligation to accept those interpretations.

I look at the dappled light in my yard and I think of my sweet son. I take another sip of coffee.

What an amazing post!

[Hagoth]

I agree with Reverend John Spong that God is not a noun but a verb. It's hard to attach qualities like jerk/nice to a verb.

[Give It Time]

I agree with Reverend John Spong that God is not a noun but a verb. It's hard to attach qualities like jerk/nice to a verb.

I've been thinking about this in terms of faith. The doubt thread has brought this to my mind. When I was younger, I gave a talk on faith and, like a teenager who was desperate for material, I went to the dictionary. Faith was a verb. At some point faith has become synonymous with religion and, thus, also a noun.

I like your view. If God is a verb, none of those nasty traits can be attached.

[Rob4Hope]

Two comments:

First:

I did use the word "he" above there, and someone mentioned "how do we know god is a he?" Ahhhh,...that is an example of where my LDS teachings still infiltrate, because that is RIGHT ON the numbers.

I don't know that, but in my use of words it just pops out.

I take no offense or anything by mentioning this--it is just a good example,...are really good one.

I have a family member who prays over food: "Please bless those who are less fortunate they will have a good meal today to." Its a rote prayer, happens all the time. This same family member has asked that a specific neighbor man who is a good friend of the family NOT be invited to dinner weekly (and there are GOOD REASONS to invite him) because: "He is not part of our family. Why do we have to feed him?" The funny part is this first member who doesn't want him there doesn't purchase the food, doesn't make the food, doesn't serve the food, doesn't clean up the food---this person just sits and eats the food.

The disparity between the prayer offered: "Bless those who are less fortunate they will have a good meal today" and "He is not part of our family. Why do we have to feed him?".....this disparity is striking and obvious to me. But the person with the struggle?....total BLIND SPOT. He can't see the blind place: is totally oblivious to it.

I'm aware of this blind spot every time the prayer on the food is said. I cringe EVERY TIME now. And because of the circumstances, the only positive thing I can do (in this situation) is ask myself: "Where do I have blind sports?.....where am I totally missing it?"

This thing above,..where I mentioned God as a "he"....its small to me, but it is a reflection of a tiny "blind spot" I have. Yeh...I see that now.

That is one of the reasons I LOVE this site, and seeing other posts and opinions. By golly, I really am trying to learn things...I'm trying to see my own blind spots and see if I can get better at knowing what to do about them. So, I love it when things like this, even small things, pop out.

Second:

I'm slowly resolving on a stratagem to get me through this hard time over god and faith. In a real way, I feel like I'm a plant ripped out of a pot suspended in the air. I have raw dangling roots, and it hurts--but there is no pot where I'm getting planted yet; AND I WANT TO BE Planted in a pot somewhere that has room to grow and good soil!

Anyway, the stratagem involves inventing my own concept of "god"...or at least the "ideal" if possible. What is the "ideal" for me.

For example, I play the following game:
-- If there is a god, he (I'm using that generically now I am aware of it) will not tell people to treat their wive like JS treated Emma.
-- If there is a god, he will not tell people like Gordon Hinkley to lie to the world about money and financial disclosure.
-- If there is a god, he will take action against murderers like BY
-- If there is a god, he will honestly care about goodness, tenderness, mercy and patience. Those won't be just words, and he will be slow to anger for real.
-- If there is a god, he will not allow people to be born "gay", and then erect a bunch of rules that destroy lives and make people feel so broken and inherently bad they will look to suicide as the way out.

I'm just throwing these things out randomly. But the point is by erecting the ideal, I have something I can look to or at least aspire to. If there ever is a GOD (and yes, that is capitalized now),...the only way that "thing" (whatever it is) is going to get my worship or even attention, is if it adheres to my ideals. Otherwise, I can't be authentic myself--and I am done splitting myself up onto fragmentary pieces to conform to someone else's ideals.

I take back my right to choose. And if that damns me to hell (if there is such a place), then I will go there knowing I eventually found integrity and truth to myself. I eventually found ME and learned to respect ME with how I felt.

Incidentally,...LDS people are all about agency. What a load of sh!t the shovel. When it comes right down to it, what I'm talking about above here is taking back my own personal agency--but the LDS faith calls what I'm doing apostasy. How twisted they are: you can have agency ONLY as you conform to their teachings?...otherwise your agency is apostasy? You can't win with them. You must give away your agency to be a good LDS person. That is how I see it now...

[Grace2Daisy]

Is man one of God's blunders or is God one of man's blunders? ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

[w2mz]

I'm sitting in my favorite chair with a hot cup of my favorite blend of coffee, looking out at a beautiful morning. The sun is sparkling on the leaves of our peach trees, which are laden with ripening peaches. On the ground next to the peach trees are the limbs of an oak that cracked and blew down in a terrific storm the other night . Tornadoes touched down, and a couple of miles south of us several homes were destroyed. There are families in our ward who are still without power. And yet, it is a truly beautiful morning.

A couple of years ago, a beloved child killed himself. He was bright, sensitive, funny. We were close; I will never get over that loss. And yet, I am profoundly moved by the beauty of this morning. Somehow there is place in me for both the unceasing heartache of his death and the joy that this morning calls forth.

One of the things I've gained since rejecting Mormonism is a greater acceptance of complexity and paradox. Daughter and I drove around after the storm, marveling at an uprooted tree, the huge limbs that had snapped and fallen. We weren't gawking at misfortune but rather feeling awe at the power of nature. It's akin to the awe I felt when looking at my newborn child and pondering the processes that unfolded in the creation of life. The night brought a storm that ripped the roofs from homes and downed trees; the morning brought neighbors armed with goodwill and chainsaws, eager to help the process of cleanup and repair. Life is both terrible and beautiful.

I don't know what god is anymore. There is power in the universe that something in me responds to and before which I feel both humble and exalted. The stories in the bible are just that . . . They are someone else's stories, someone else's attempt to make sense of the force they perceived in the universe. I no longer feel any obligation to accept those interpretations.

I look at the dappled light in my yard and I think of my sweet son. I take another sip of coffee.

What an amazing post!

Totally agree. Awesome post. Touching and heartfelt.

This morning I was able to go on a hike with a NOM from this site who is now one of my close friends. What a beautiful morning to be on a mountain, enjoying nature, discussing life, religion, philosophy, and whatever else with a trusted friend.

Life is definitely "complexity and paradox"... perfect description Fife.

[NOMinally Mormon]

As a believer, I never had personal prayers. I'd read enough scripture to infer that God is furiously angry with me for not being good enough, so I just wanted to be unnoticed. Once in SS somebody asked our thoughts on a gospel principle, and I replied, it doesn't matter what we think, God's the boss. This hasn't been a very uplifting religion for me. Now, postmormonism, I lean towards neopaganism, finding spirituality in nature. A personal god just doesn't work for me.

[MerrieMiss]

I think most cultural representations/concepts/descriptions of god reflect who they, the cultures, are. Mormon god is a good representation of mormonism (capitalism, manifest destiny, corporate america, WASP work ethic, even to the idea that he's a man and doesn't need a woman - she's nothing more than a footnote).

I like the idea of god. I don't know if there is one or not, but I like the idea. For quite a while in my transition I held universalist beliefs about god, but now I have more a belief in a power, force, consciousness, I'm not sure what, that exists. It makes me feel good, and it doesn't make god into a thing, but more of a concept. Good or bad isn't part of it.

Is man one of God's blunders or is God one of man's blunders? ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

Wasn't there someone on the old NOM who said something like, "God created man in his own image and then man turned around and returned the favor?" I always liked that.

[wtfluff]

Obligatory:

5000-Gods.jpg (211.02 KiB) Viewed 7370 times

[Rob4Hope]

I think most cultural representations/concepts/descriptions of god reflect who they, the cultures, are. Mormon god is a good representation of mormonism (capitalism, manifest destiny, corporate america, WASP work ethic, even to the idea that he's a man and doesn't need a woman - she's nothing more than a footnote).

I like the idea of god. I don't know if there is one or not, but I like the idea. For quite a while in my transition I held universalist beliefs about god, but now I have more a belief in a power, force, consciousness, I'm not sure what, that exists. It makes me feel good, and it doesn't make god into a thing, but more of a concept. Good or bad isn't part of it.

Is man one of God's blunders or is God one of man's blunders? ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

Wasn't there someone on the old NOM who said something like, "God created man in his own image and then man turned around and returned the favor?" I always liked that.

I like the post. The idea also makes me feel good.

[Nonny]

It goes like this (in no particular order and not an exhaustive list):

1. Since God commanded JS to take multiple wives, and threatened Emma with destruction if she didn't accept it, he is a jerk.
2. Since God commanded BY to teach and practice Blood Atonement, he is a jerk.
3. Since God gave license to the Q15 to tell lies, and then holds the average LDS member accountable for their honesty, he has a mixed standard and is a jerk.
4. Since God commanded the ancient Israelites to kill all the babies of the phylistines, he held them accountable for their parent's choices, and children are NOT innocent, so he is a jerk...

I think MerrieMiss nailed it. Here is what I thought when I first read your reasoning above. (Disclaimer: I am a Mormon atheist, meaning I don't believe in the Mormon God.)

1. Joseph Smith really, really wanted to have additional women, so he threatened Emma by using the name of God in vain. JS was a jerk.
2. Brigham Young had extreme power and was an egotistical jerk.
3. Some church authorities lie or reimagine the truth in order to achieve specific aims. Sometimes they are jerks.
4. The ancient Israelites were in a society where war and bloodshed bought them land and power. They used the name of God to justify their actions. They were people of their time.

[Nonny]

How do we even know god is a "he"?

Good question. I don't think of God in terms of gender. If I do say "he", it's in the gender neutral sense. I think we should create a new gender neutral pronoun that isn't​ also used for things.

I like che (long E sound). Che, chey, chem, ches. Who's with me? Let's get a non-gendered pronoun into the lexicon.

[deacon blues]

I think of God as an ideal being, who can be trusted to tell the truth with love. That leaves a lot of room, but it also eliminates whoever wrote D&C 19, 29, or 132, 2nd Nephi 4, or 3rd Nephi 8. Since my mother died, I like to think of her as a guardian angel for me, as she was for much of my life. If God is a jerk, how would one worship him? We might have to negotiate with him or knuckle under to him, but........

[Give It Time]

How do we even know god is a "he"?

Good question. I don't think of God in terms of gender. If I do say "he", it's in the gender neutral sense. I think we should create a new gender neutral pronoun that isn't​ also used for things.

I like che (long E sound). Che, chey, chem, ches. Who's with me? Let's get a non-gendered pronoun into the lexicon.

I'm in.