Things Men Sometimes Say to Women

[Korihor]

"What do you know about that anyway?" (Said by a real estate agent after I asked whether the studs in a house were 18 on center or 24 on center).

I think you mean 16 on center or 24 on center

I think you're right - this was a long, long time ago! I know I asked the correct question at the time, though. Duh!

I'm just giving you crap. Everyone else had something insightful to share, this is all I got.

[Give It Time]

This was a red pill moment for me.

[Give It Time]

I'm posting this separately.

It was the crazy cat lady reference that really opened my eyes. I am a crazy cat lady, but never really thought the term misogynist. When I saw this, I thought about it. There isn't really an​ equivalent term for a man. There isn't an equivalent term for a childless couple. It's only the women who get shamed with this one.

Anon70, I want to address your point. Toxic patriarchy is real and needs to be addressed. It negatively impact everyone. I want to thank you for pointing out this could so easily get mean-spirited, even though the OP asked for respect, after your post, I took a second look at move. After that, I changed my approach to my posts. I've been trying to take them in a more constructive direction.

[didyoumythme]

I have to say that many (not all) of the examples you listed don't seem sexist, but seem like reasonable responses given the situation. I am not surprised that a real estate agent was surprised that a person knew about framing homes, or that you had to dispel an idea that working from home on the internet is real work, or 'what's your family situation' was asked in an interview. Other examples were more explicit and obviously sexist, but not all. Maybe there were other indicators in these situations that made you feel differently, or maybe you were assuming motives that weren't really there.

Now before I get dogpiled, I want to say that I do see the sexist culture and doctrine in the patriarchal church and I do not approve. As a father of a young daughter, this is a big reason I take issue with the church.

[Anon70]

Thanks give it time

This turned into a thought provoking post so thanks.

Didyoumythme I wanted to say something similar. Yes there is sexism in the church. And it should not be tolerated. And it should be eradicated.

And, there's also bullying. And some of the examples spoke to me as that. I think I could list similar examples that had happened to men from other men. Or woman to woman. Woman to man.

Wouldn't it be nice if courteous and kind behavior were the norm?

[Give It Time]

I have to say that many (not all) of the examples you listed don't seem sexist, but seem like reasonable responses given the situation. I am not surprised that a real estate agent was surprised that a person knew about framing homes, or that you had to dispel an idea that working from home on the internet is real work, or 'what's your family situation' was asked in an interview. Other examples were more explicit and obviously sexist, but not all. Maybe there were other indicators in these situations that made you feel differently, or maybe you were assuming motives that weren't really there.

Now before I get dogpiled, I want to say that I do see the sexist culture and doctrine in the patriarchal church and I do not approve. As a father of a young daughter, this is a big reason I take issue with the church.

I'll address two of these questions. My ex telecommuted and taking that factor into account was why we bought the house we did. He never had to defend his choice. He'd get lots of wistful questions from people about how he was able to make it happen. Perhaps they also saw telecommuting as not as real of work as office work, but the difference between these two experiences is a woman was criticized for the choice and a man was praised for the same choice.

The second one is family situation in a job interview. I've been asked this question. Last job hunt I had, I was asked. That was four years ago. I think we might need a new survey, because in order to prove Silver's point, we'd have to establish this question is asked of far more women than men.

[Give It Time]

I want to say that I've noticed in the church women just being invisible.

For instance, my son was extended an important calling in his Deacon's quorum. Before they extended the call, they asked permission of the father "as a courtesy". My husband at the time told me how he appreciated this. I responded that, since I was responsible for the meals, the laundry, seeing that the homework gets done, generally making all the pieces fit and everyone is fed and clothed and where they need to be when they need to be, it would have been nice if "as a courtesy", I had been asked, as well as--or in lieu of--the father.

I will have you know I was very much a well-behaved Mormon Woman, at this time, had that group been in existence. I happened to have a firm testimony of the sacredness and sanctity of my raising the next generation. I still do. I just didn't think the church, doctrinally or culturally, should totally devalue by totally failing to see what a woman needs to accomplish this job. If the church wants to tout motherhood so badly, I suggest they get behind that and actually help, or at least not make it more difficult, to do this most important work.

[moksha]

"What do you know about that anyway?" (Said by a real estate agent after I asked whether the studs in a house were 18 on center or 24 on center).

I think you mean 16 on center or 24 on center

The salesman could have been inquiring as to whether she wished to have the house collapse on someone she disliked by steering her to a 24 on center built structure in a heavily snowbound area. Sometimes you have to ask such questions in an awkward manner for liability purposes.

[Silver Girl]

"What do you know about that anyway?" (Said by a real estate agent after I asked whether the studs in a house were 16 on center or 24 on center).

I think you mean 16 on center or 24 on center

The salesman could have been inquiring as to whether she wished to have the house collapse on someone she disliked by steering her to a 24 on center built structure in a heavily snowbound area. Sometimes you have to ask such questions in an awkward manner for liability purposes.

It was a male salesperson, and the tone of voice spoke volumes. One of my ways of measuring this is to assess whether the person would say the same thing to a man. This house was in a state with stability issues (CA) and there were many cases of shorted foundations or unsafe construction. It was years ago, but I remember the scorn in his voice. A more reasonable question (response to my question) would have been, "What are you looking for?"

[Silver Girl]

I'll address two of these questions. My ex telecommuted and taking that factor into account was why we bought the house we did. He never had to defend his choice. He'd get lots of wistful questions from people about how he was able to make it happen. Perhaps they also saw telecommuting as not as real of work as office work, but the difference between these two experiences is a woman was criticized for the choice and a man was praised for the same choice.

The second one is family situation in a job interview. I've been asked this question. Last job hunt I had, I was asked. That was four years ago. I think we might need a new survey, because in order to prove Silver's point, we'd have to establish this question is asked of far more women than men.

I've seen the same dichotomy of reactions, GiT - especially in recent years when it's very common to telecommute. In the instance I posted, I perhaps should have expanded a bit to explain that because my worked involved a weekly teleconference & reviewing material remotely prior to the teleconferences. this guy had been a bit dismissive of it when we discussed it. So I showed him the material (lengthy scientific documents) and the scope of the what we did. The field it was in is a bit male dominated, and I doubt seriously he would have assumed a man did not to "real" work.

As for the question about family status, that has been illegal to ask for many years, and the interview setting in my case was related to the legal field (that part blew me away). I managed to sidestep it by saying, "If you're asking whether I can travel for work, absolutely. Not a problem!" The work involved daily back & forth fights at times, for concentrated periods of time. I wanted the position, and I knew if I had given pushback on the question, it would not have worked in my favor.

As you mentioned in another post, women are often invisible. Years ago, businesses advertised for a "Girl Friday" to do office work - remember those days? My first jobs were during the era when that language was very common in want ads. I didn't like it at the time, but it was what it was. That was life. If you mentioned anything, you were labeled, or you were laughed at. In some prior years (long before even that era), want ads even specified an age range - under 25 was common - and that she be pretty. I saw copies of those ads in a museum display.

When you combine those real world cultural issues with the media (which still very much sexualizes women) and then you add in the church culture, the message many females hear is that they have only a limited scope of usefulness, that their roles are to please men and to bear children, and that their identities are very much integrated with those expectations.

[2bizE]

Things I say to my wife. I am not perfect, so please forgive...

I love you.
I love you.
I love you.
Thank you sweety.
Would you please rub some lotion on my feet? Btw, the answer is always no.
Is there anything for dinner yet?
How are you feeling?
Are you feeling frisky tonight?

[document]

This thread is fascinating. I've always been aware of gender-based condescension because I had "feminine" interests as a child and teenager (ballet, classical music, art, etc.). I still regret to this day avoiding my dream of being a cheerleader in high school because it was associated with the other gender. Because my interests were criticized heavily by males and females alike, I suppressed much of my interests.

When I got married, it was interesting how much of that criticism went away. Nobody questioned my interests anymore. Yes, there were the occasional comments, but they were few and far between. My then-wife and I moved into a traditional gender-role based marriage. She stayed home with the children and I went to work. She cooked dinner, I cleaned the dishes. We both parented when we were both home. We strove for equality in work load as best we could.

During those ten years, I never noticed gender-based condescension, because it never happened to me during that time. Nobody cared, I was married.

When I got divorced, gender-based condescension kicked in again. This time it wasn't so much about my interests, it was about cooking, cleaning, raising children, etc. My co-parent and I have a close-to-equal residential schedule, I have three days, she has four. When a single father is raising four children, comments come in. There is an assumption that you can never be as good as a mother, because the children "need a good meal" or they are "living in a mess". *Ahem* My apartment is spotless and I've taught myself to cook and I'm pretty good at it. People are constantly telling me I need to marry, not because I want to find love, but because I need a woman in my life to help raise my kids or in some cases, decorate my apartment.

My co-parent and I have a good relationship and we have talked about this condescension many times. People did the same thing to her while she was single and doubly so when she became engaged. When single they questioned her ability to maintain a lawn, work a job, do home repairs, even get an oil change. When she got married people assumed she got married so that her life would be easier, not because of love.

All the experiences of my youth came rushing back and in the last three years I've become hyper-aware of those comments. They happen constantly to _every_ woman in my life and around me. I heard it in line at the store just yesterday and again two hours later waiting to pickup my daughter from a party. I rarely hear it towards men and almost always towards women. I hear it towards my daughter constantly. I sometimes hear it from my own stupid mouth, followed by an apology. I know how much it hurts, and yet I find myself saying it on occasion.

What is interesting is that these comments are almost always meant in genuine kindness. The women offering to make me a "real, home cooked meal" is genuinely offering to help me. The neighbor telling my co-parent that he could take the car in for an oil change was genuinely offering to help. I really believe they aren't trying to be offensive, but their assumptions of gender-roles turn out to be quite hurtful towards the party they are speaking to. That's why I think we all do it on occasion, but just like a lot of things we do, it just takes vigilance and an honest apology when it does occur to reduce it as much as we can.

[Give It Time]

Thank you for writing your experiences, Document.

I like that you refer to your ex-wife as a co-parenting.

I'll try to add rather than do a complete flip-side of your comments. First of all, I notice gender-based stuff coming out of my own stupid mouth, as well.

My experiences have been that I have had a male ward leader come over and invite my minor son to a church activity. No big deal, you say? He knocked on the door, asked fo my son, not me, and invited him to the activity. When I walked into the room the leader got an uneasy look on his face. I don't mind if my son participates in church activities. He has a testimony and I support that. What I mind is people assuming I object without ever having spoken to me and going behind my back in my own home in an effort they perceive is indoctrinating the child against the parent's wishes. When I called this leader on it, he didn't back down and I ended up having to involve the bishop. So, I'm not only viewed as an inadequate parent, but my rights can be trampled upon and in order to get this person to respect my rights I have to involve a father figure.

Another example was some nice neighbors decided to use their snow blower to shovel walks. It was a heavy winter. It frequently snowed at a time when no one in the house could get out to take care of the walks. I appreciated it. However, I did request that if they are ever doing this and they can see my car is in the garage, to call me or one of my sons to help. They never did. Even though it was a husband and wife taking turns.

I realize they're just trying to be helpful, but they definitely do see single parent led families as less. That's why I appreciated your comments. I hadn't considered how this would play out for a single father, but you're right. It's interesting, I tell them in varying degrees of firmness to (please) respect that I'm the head of household and to let me ask for help in carrying my load, rather than stepping in and taking over. This is that well-intended Mormon aggression that was actually pointed out to me by my son (the one with the testimony).

I haven't interacted on any significant level with members of other faith communities. I'm sure there's some of this type of aggressive unintentionally demeaning service. I don't know if it's to the degree ours is. I don't think it's institutionalized to the degree ours is. I know we solo parents carry a heavier load, in many ways, but I'll be honest. I know this is a little tough. Yes, a spouse helps, but sometimes a spouse creates extra work. I won't elaborate. I'm sure everyone can give examples. So, there are ways that solo parents have it easier than two parent households and ways we have it harder. I think that's another reason I don't necessarily appreciate these efforts to help. Who says I have it harder? Actually, I do. It's very hard, but in many ways, for different reasons, it was harder when my husband was in the home.

Just interesting these assumptions. How we are both on the receiving end. How we're the same. How we're different.

[Mad Jax]

This isn't pointed at any one comment or post in particular, but just an idea I wonder if some may float around a bit and see if it has any bearing.

I think it may be possible that much of this is less a function of cultural zeitgeist and more an outgrowth of simpler animal psychology. Here's my anecdote; not proof of anything, just a thought seed.

I haven't mentioned this aspect of myself, I don't think, but I'm 6'3, 240+ lbs (and have been up to 260) with very little body fat, have many visible tattoos and shave my head. And believe it or not... I was blind to the difference in the way others treated me in comparison to males of less imposing physical stature. It took years and the loving kindness of Mormon friends to point out to me the difference in their experiences. I even used to say stupid things as a result of my own lens being so limited. Things like "I don't understand the problem. Slam his head into the concrete a few times if he threatens you. Problem solved." I was absolutely clueless as to why other males felt threatened by things like "psycho-exes" because it wasn't my problem. But when it was explicitly pointed out to me, I couldn't unsee it. It is true, there's a deference even in my 40s that most other men don't experience.

Again, none of this disproves the possibility that women are dismissed primarily because of gender, but I don't think it's an element that can be entirely disregarded. There is a sense of that person's "power" that transmits from their physical stature, and in the case of male/female dimorphism, I think it's very possible that a person feels they can do anything they wish because there's no "threat" from that person - at least to the more base, animal part of a person's brain. Considering how little humans use logic as opposed to emotion in their decision making and I think it's something that should be considered.

I'm not trying to make a "point" so much as I'm just wondering what everyone else thinks of the idea.

[Newme]

I agree with the acknowledgement that it's a 2-way street, or round about.
We each say inconsiderate things sometimes.
Almost daily, I review something I said or did and emotionally beat myself up for it, even though that probably doesn't help.

Though I have more to improve, I'm learning to assert myself when someone repeatedly offends me. If it's just once or so, I figure, nobody's perfect. But if it's a pattern, I try to either explain to them how & why they were offensive, or I maintain boundaries. When I haven't respected myself like that, I find myself pissed that others haven't.

[MoPag]

I think it's very possible that a person feels they can do anything they wish because there's no "threat" from that person - at least to the more base, animal part of a person's brain. Considering how little humans use logic as opposed to emotion in their decision making and I think it's something that should be considered.

I'm not trying to make a "point" so much as I'm just wondering what everyone else thinks of the idea.

Interesting. I remember -I think it was Buzzfeed- did a social experiment where they took two actors, a male and female, and had them pretend to be a couple having and argument in a public place. In the first scenario, the man becomes physically violent with the woman. Bystanders rush to her aid and physically restrain the man. In the second scenario, the woman becomes violent towards the man. This time, bystanders look the other way kind of embarrassed and some even laugh. A lot of people said that it was sexism towards the man. One researcher explained that animal part of our brains will establish who is dominant in a situation. That was why some bystanders laughed when the woman was hitting the man. It just didn't make sense to the very primal part of their brain. Then they suggested what if the man was elderly or disabled and the woman was hitting him. Then it isn't funny anymore because she would be the dominant one. I think the gist of the article was we should use our fully formed brain that understands that physical violence isn't socially acceptable.

[moksha]

Here is a somewhat positive story coming out of Salt Lake. During their annual LGBT Pride Parade, a Salt Lake City man set a new world's record by sticking his head in the cotton candy machine till he had a creation three feet high. Flavors ran from bubble gum to raspberry.


Will be appearing in the Guiness World Book for the tallest cotton candy headgear.

[didyoumythme]

There is a sense of that person's "power" that transmits from their physical stature, and in the case of male/female dimorphism, I think it's very possible that a person feels they can do anything they wish because there's no "threat" from that person - at least to the more base, animal part of a person's brain.

I agree with you and think this is a big part of how we interact with each other. People that project confidence and power through personality or physical appearance are treated accordingly. There is a reason tall, outspoken people are more likely to be placed in leadership positions. There have been plenty of studies correlating height with success.

[Give It Time]

There is a sense of that person's "power" that transmits from their physical stature, and in the case of male/female dimorphism, I think it's very possible that a person feels they can do anything they wish because there's no "threat" from that person - at least to the more base, animal part of a person's brain.

I agree with you and think this is a big part of how we interact with each other. People that project confidence and power through personality or physical appearance are treated accordingly. There is a reason tall, outspoken people are more likely to be placed in leadership positions. There have been plenty of studies correlating height with success.

I'm​ finding this to be very true. Height is certainly a factor, but the only one. I think it's crazy and messed up, but there seems to be some basic instinct that if a person poses no threat, that's the person to harm.

[hmb]

When you combine those real world cultural issues with the media (which still very much sexualizes women) and then you add in the church culture, the message many females hear is that they have only a limited scope of usefulness, that their roles are to please men and to bear children, and that their identities are very much integrated with those expectations.

This is what I was trying to come up with. It's a societal problem, further complicated by the church. Other churches/organizations too, though not all.

One of my worst experiences was, as a female truck driver, I was hit by a drunk driver (male). To avoid mowing over his small pickup, which turned in front of me, I turned away hard, causing the truck to flip on its side. I had to make a choice of moving out of the way or potentially crushing the guy. Now I don't tolerate drunk driving, but this 22 year old would not deserve to get crushed. The commentary from other truckers was that women shouldn't drive commercially, blah blah blah. Really? What a load. The driver (drunk) was so sorry. I felt better about him than any of those drivers. Even though the drunk was faulted by CHP, the whole thing would have been avoided if a man was driving I don't know why I let it bug me so much (most likely because I believed it on some level). Probably because I'm female and too emotional. Maybe it was THAT time of the month. Wait, I was pregnant at the time. Oh, that's probably it. Hormones, because...girly hormones. Yeah, I suppose I'm a bit bitter .

Then there's the church attitudes about women. If you don't like it, change your attitude. God, through his prophets, says it's this way. We are baby makers. Breeders of rodents put one male with several females. Crank out them babies to feed snakes. It feels like that .

I loved being pregnant. I liked having the babies and agree with a parent being home as much as financially possible. I don't like the stigma, limits, and denial of strength as a female. It's a fact that females are physically weaker than most males, but there are many ways to have strength (look at me, preaching to the choir). I especially hate that I, myself, have to fight the 2nd class, lesser than feelings I had while growing up, and still have, to a degree. It's tiring to tell myself it's nonsense, but deep down...