When did religion start and what is its purpose?i

[2bizE]

I have been thinking a lot about the purpose of life and death as I go through this transition. I don't know if there is a god anymore, although I still have some faith in Christ.
The story of Adam and Eve seems to be symbolic. The earth has been around for much more than 6000 years.
I begin to question when religions started and why. I believe religion started as a way to explain the unknown; particularly death. Life after death seems to be the key concept of most religions. These were just ideas people made up and over time, they evolved and more people started to believe.
What are your thoughts?

[Mad Jax]

It's possible it began with the deification of rulers. But I think older, more animistic beliefs started much earlier.

[Palerider]

Having the opportunity to work with some Native Americans in the past and even recently, it's like having a look at a culture that is probably 40 or 50 thousand years behind our own in development or as an evolving society. Even if you stipulate the recent (last 500 years or so) influence of more evolved societies there is still enough "left over" to have a peek into what a stone age culture really thought and looked like. It is much more sophisticated than we might think. These people really had a complex yet at the same time, simplified world view.

There is a great deal of mythology built up by their ancestors much of which is strongly connected to the earth, sun, moon and the seasons. But one thing they are very sure of and are not reticent to express is the existence of the "Creator". They have such an unwavering belief of their connection with Him and of their connection with Mother Earth and all things, both plant and animal, that are a part of not only the creation but a part of the natives themselves. They truly see themselves as an integrated part of the creation but also with a special place in it.

Some of the mythology seems fantastical and still other seems very practical. It would have been really exciting to see how a culture at that level would have evolved over another 30-50 thousand years. A lot of people (the unthinking ones) like to view more primitive cultures as stagnant and stuck in time. I'm of the opinion that given the nature of man that is built into us, that perhaps with enough time, the primitive cultures would have arrived at pretty much the exact spot where we currently are.....just at a later date.

Man evolves very possibly because that's the way the great Designer intended for him to act.

So I think that "religion" or what I would rather call "world view" has been with us since time immemorial. I think the knowledge, concept, notion, faith in, of a "Creator" is so strongly built into us that that in and of itself is possible "evidence" of His existence. Even though I view some of the Old Testament Biblical stories as symbolic in nature, I think when read with understanding there is plenty of room for belief. And that is why I put my faith in Christ as well.

[oliver_denom]

Some of the mythology seems fantastical and still other seems very practical. It would have been really exciting to see how a culture at that level would have evolved over another 30-50 thousand years. A lot of people (the unthinking ones) like to view more primitive cultures as stagnant and stuck in time. I'm of the opinion that given the nature of man that is built into us that perhaps with enough time, the primitive cultures would have arrived at pretty much the exact spot where we currently are.....just at a later date.

My thought is similar in that I think religion began as something practical, the foundation of which was probably laid before homo sapien even evolved. For example, we can find ritualistic behaviors among communal animals where no language exists. I think its safe to assume that whichever hominid species we evolved from had these same sorts of behaviors. Of course when language enters the picture religion as well as many other things became way more complex. When did language start? No one really knows. Evidence points to a range from 1.75 million to a mere 50,000 years ago.

http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2013/0 ... ech-evolve
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of ... y_timeline

Either way, religion is way older than recorded history. I think it's safe to say that modern man co-evolved with religion, that it's a part of our human biology. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that the specific contents of religion are inborn. If religion is defined as ritual, symbols, and community, then this is something common to all humanity, even atheists. If religion is innate, meaning that we behave in a religious manner, then it doesn't really matter whether we worship Zeus, Jesus, or nature. The religious activity, whether it be reason or wearing lucky socks to the ball game, scratches a specific human itch. We get off on it. It helps us deal with existence.

Some have pointed out, specifically Karl Marx and Nietzsche, that the religious impulse can be used as a means of leveraging power. However, we shouldn't get confused by this causality. Religion wasn't created for the purpose of enslaving people or maintaining power. Maybe it's used that way sometimes, but that's not where it comes from. If religion pre-dates civilization, and it seems to, then it can't likely be the invention of civilization for the purpose of keeping the nobility in power, or the reverse, the means by which the oppressed oppress the oppressors.

[wtfluff]

As others have mentioned: "Religion" probably started when human-like creatures became self aware and basically started worshiping nature.

It probably took a while before those creatures started creating gods in their own image, and worshiping those gods.


What is religion's purpose? Well, when you break it all down to basics: Religion's purpose is for whomever runs that religion to make money off of it. CHA-CHING! $$$

(Nope, I'm not cynical. Not. At. All.)

[Corsair]

Most of the human brain is concerned with pattern recognition. This is especially true with facial recognition as evidenced by how easily humans detect human faces in all sorts of every day objects like electrical outlets and headlights and bumpers on cars. We quickly see patterns even when patterns are not really there.

Our ancestors needed to find an explanation for weather, movement of game animals, growing food, or producing healthy offspring since survival depended on these often uncontrollable phenomena. Finding spirits or some unseen, other-wordly forces arose pretty naturally and explained the patterns our early ancestors experienced. This is not an attempt to prove an uncaring, atheistic universe. It is simply what naturally arises when things are happening and and an easy explanation is desired in a pre-literate, pre-scientific society that is still trying to understand basic concepts like agriculture so they don't starve.

Refinement of these animistic beliefs produced religion after the early Agricultural Revolution started allowing groups of humans to live together in larger groups. Religious belief has been an astonishingly useful organizing force even if the gods they worshiped could not objectively verified. No one can deny the success of an thoroughly pagan Rome for its first thousand years of existence. I still have some interest in maintaining Christian beliefs today but I can't deny many of the natural and very human processes that lead to religious belief today.

[LaMachina]

I'm in the middle of reading the book 'Sapiens' by Yuval Noah Harari. So far it's been an interesting read and one of the things he discusses is the Cognitive Revolution. The moment in our evolution (argued to be about 70,000 BCE) where our brains developed the capacity for fiction or "imagined realities" as he calls it. According to his theory, it was this that allowed Homo Sapiens to conquer the world and even our own Homo cousins as the ability to believe in things that existed entirely in our own minds permitted a level of cooperation previously unattainable. Even chimpanzees will cooperate to a large degree but it takes these imagined realities to jump from bands and tribes to city states, nations and religions.

I have to admit, I find the argument really fascinating. He suggests examples that are perhaps not so obviously "imagined realities" like, corporations, political and economic systems and even things like the Declaration of Independence as being very similar to religion in that we've created them entirely out of our own capacity for imagination. It makes me think that religion is very much tied into how we think and that the relatively recent revolt against it is perhaps just a clamour for better stories.

[MerrieMiss]

I'm a big Joseph Campbell fan, so I look at religion through the lens of myth. According to Campbell, myth has four functions:

• Mystical

• Cosmological

• Sociological

• Pedagogical

And because he can say it better than I ever could:

Myth basically serves four functions. The first is the mystical function,... realizing what a wonder the universe is, and what a wonder you are, and experiencing awe before this mystery....The second is a cosmological dimension, the dimension with which science is concerned – showing you what shape the universe is, but showing it in such a way that the mystery again comes through.... The third function is the sociological one – supporting and validating a certain social order.... It is the sociological function of myth that has taken over in our world – and it is out of date.... But there is a fourth function of myth, and this is the one that I think everyone must try today to relate to – and that is the pedagogical function, of how to live a human lifetime under any circumstances.

As the when it began, I have no idea, but if the above are the purposes for its existence, I would say that it probably organically arose as the need to fulfill those functions became important. Not much of an answer.

[Ghost]

Yuval Noah Harari

I recently listened to Sam Harris's interview with Harari, and I appreciated the same thoughts you shared about how every societal structure we have is a story we've made up and then bought into.

We cooperate effectively with strangers because we believe in things like gods, nations, money and human rights. Yet none of these things exists outside the stories that people invent and tell one another. There are no gods in the universe, no nations, no money and no human rights—except in the common imagination of human beings. You can never convince a chimpanzee to give you a banana by promising him that after he dies, he will get limitless bananas in chimpanzee Heaven. Only Sapiens can believe such stories. This is why we rule the world, and chimpanzees are locked up in zoos and research laboratories.

[dogbite]

Religion is an offshoot of our hyper agency detection behavior of our brains. Are oldest religions in hunter-gatherer societies the gods aren't particularly moral. The exhibit attributes that they are described to explain daily life and the features that they lived among for storms and fires or whatever happened.

As human communities began to expand Beyond small tribes the gods had to have bigger functions to help us trust each other we couldn't all know everyone in the tribe anymore. So the gods took on more watchful aspects that included moral judgment this kept everyone in line and help the members trust the members of the community they didn't know well. The moral aspects and omniscience omnipresence became part of bigger and bigger religions and bigger Gods until we reached monotheism.

Religion didn't have one purpose. its purpose and scope evolved as our communities evolved. The gods evolved to meet the societal needs of the communities they served.

Initially gods explained the unexplained workings of the universe. It became the see fracture government of larger groups. Modern government services supply many of the social services religion used to and so religion is evolving again.

[ulmite]

When God spake to Adam. Honestly, guys, didn't you go to Sunday School?

If God does send spirits down to Earth to live in human bodies, you could define Adam as the first spirit He sent, and this perspective gives you a date and a purpose.

If not, possible kickstarters are :
- someone having an NDE and telling everyone about it
- people putting a structure on folk magic and superstition
- some group of people believes that some schizophrenic guy is hearing real voices
- someone using it as a tool to get power

[moksha]

The moment in our evolution (argued to be about 70,000 BCE) where our brains developed the capacity for fiction or "imagined realities" as he calls it.

I imagine that musically our Sapiens ancestors had a different sense of rhythm than the Neanderthals. We might have started with a one and a two, while they began one, two, three....

Sapien music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XElwAwS0GvE
Neanderthal music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAUd6jpCsEY

That age old debate on whether religion or prostitution existed as the first profession is an interesting topic.

[Hagoth]

Here's how I look at it:

I think it is important to differentiate between religion and belief systems.

Belief systems exist in small egalitarian societies, but religions develop along with social stratification. When a society has a surplus of food and a way to store it, and when habitation starts to put pressure on resources, some enterprising individuals or kin groups start putting themselves between those resources and other people. One of the best ways to do that is to claim that you're acting on behalf of the god(s). Then you demonstrate the validity of your specialness by getting people to build monumental structures where you can convene with supernatural beings on their behalf (pyramids in Mesoamerica, temples in Kirtland and Nauvoo). Getting people to do stuff for you is the simplest definition of power. Only religion has the power to make people do work and give up food and property to please the invisible powers that will keep them safe and make their fields fertile. Of course, they do this for kings too, out of coercion, but look at how many kings in history have also declared themselves either divine or divinely appointed.

[Palerider]

Here's how I look at it:

I think it is important to differentiate between religion and belief systems.

That's why I said I prefer the term "world view" over religion. Although even in northwest/great plains american native tribes which were much more hunter\gatherer they still had Shaman or Holy men and also had certain ceremonies that had to be performed on various occasions in set places.

[moksha]

I suspect they had an animistic religion in the Indus River Valley around 8000 BCE. Most likely they paid reverence to whatever they thought could help them survive.


Hopefully, these early religionists brought an offering of mackerel and baklava.

[wtfluff]

Here's how I look at it:

I think it is important to differentiate between religion and belief systems.

That's why I said I prefer the term "world view" over religion. Although even in northwest/great plains american native tribes which were much more hunter\gatherer they still had Shaman or Holy men and also had certain ceremonies that had to be performed on various occasions in set places.

So... A world view or belief system is... The way someone views the world?

And a religion is... When someone decides they can make money off of their world view or belief system by selling it to others?

[Hagoth]

Here's how I look at it:

I think it is important to differentiate between religion and belief systems.

That's why I said I prefer the term "world view" over religion. Although even in northwest/great plains american native tribes which were much more hunter\gatherer they still had Shaman or Holy men and also had certain ceremonies that had to be performed on various occasions in set places.

Good points, PR. I guess one difference between a shaman and a priest is that a shaman still participates in hunting/gathering for his sustenance, while a priest is a professional who is supported by a society.

[LaMachina]

I recently listened to Sam Harris's interview with Harari, and I appreciated the same thoughts you shared about how every societal structure we have is a story we've made up and then bought into.

I missed this interview somehow, thanks for the heads up! I'll check it out.

Sapien music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XElwAwS0GvE
Neanderthal music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAUd6jpCsEY

Lol, I think we can all agree, the USC trojans are a bunch of troglodytes.

I think it is important to differentiate between religion and belief systems.

Belief systems exist in small egalitarian societies, but religions develop along with social stratification... Only religion has the power to make people do work and give up food and property to please the invisible powers that will keep them safe and make their fields fertile. Of course, they do this for kings too, out of coercion, but look at how many kings in history have also declared themselves either divine or divinely appointed.

I'm failing to see the difference between religion and any other belief systems (eg. communism, nationalism, capitalism) that exist within large, socially stratified societies. The way it appears to me is there are many belief systems that can inspire one to give up food, property or life to satisfy some "invisible" power. An example that comes to mind is soldiers who enlist to fight for nationality and freedom, concepts that are well outside the realm of merely plundering for land or material gain?

And I wonder about the chicken and egg scenario; do large socially stratified societies lead to these religions or does the myth-making of religion and other imagined realities lead to large socially stratified societies. From my understanding of how modern humans developed it seems the myth making, which perhaps included "priesthoods" and social stratification came first? But I may have misunderstood the distinction you're making...

[Corsair]

I'm failing to see the difference between religion and any other belief systems (eg. communism, nationalism, capitalism) that exist within large, socially stratified societies. The way it appears to me is there are many belief systems that can inspire one to give up food, property or life to satisfy some "invisible" power. An example that comes to mind is soldiers who enlist to fight for nationality and freedom, concepts that are well outside the realm of merely plundering for land or material gain?

Yes, it's hard to see the boundary between political ideologies and religious ideologies. As you note, I'm not sure that there is even a fuzzy boundary. Consider a group like the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka They were an avowed secular political terrorist group fighting for secession against the nation of Sri Lanka. Although entirely lacking a religious base, the Tamil Tigers performed suicide bombings against government and civilian targets. They basically invented explosive vests and belts.

Obviously, I'm not holding up the Tamil Tigers as paragons of any virtue whatsoever based on human rights violations alone. But I have to be impressed (and horrified) with how a secular organization still inspired members to perform an ultimate sacrifice. It's not easy to define the difference between politics and religion in certain. Getting a group of humans to work together is the most real super power anyone can have on this planet. Religion is a great way to do this.

[Newme]

Most of the human brain is concerned with pattern recognition. This is especially true with facial recognition as evidenced by how easily humans detect human faces in all sorts of every day objects like electrical outlets and headlights and bumpers on cars. We quickly see patterns even when patterns are not really there.

Our ancestors needed to find an explanation for weather, movement of game animals, growing food, or producing healthy offspring since survival depended on these often uncontrollable phenomena. Finding spirits or some unseen, other-wordly forces arose pretty naturally and explained the patterns our early ancestors experienced. This is not an attempt to prove an uncaring, atheistic universe. It is simply what naturally arises when things are happening and and an easy explanation is desired in a pre-literate, pre-scientific society that is still trying to understand basic concepts like agriculture so they don't starve.

Refinement of these animistic beliefs produced religion after the early Agricultural Revolution started allowing groups of humans to live together in larger groups. Religious belief has been an astonishingly useful organizing force even if the gods they worshiped could not objectively verified. No one can deny the success of an thoroughly pagan Rome for its first thousand years of existence. I still have some interest in maintaining Christian beliefs today but I can't deny many of the natural and very human processes that lead to religious belief today.

I think you're right - especially about pattern recognition. So much we take for granted now, but it's taken hundreds of thousands of years to get to this point! Carl Jung explained collective unconsious and how religion has been used...


"As soon as man was capable of conceiving the idea of sin, he had recourse to psychic concealment, or, to put it in analytical language, repressions arose. Anything that is concealed is a secret. The maintenance of secrets acts like a psychic poison which alienates their possessor from the community. Sin, in small doses, this poison may actually be a priceless remedy, even an essential preliminary to the differentiation of the individual... If we are conscious of what we conceal, the harm done is decidedly less than if we do not know what we are repressing - or even that we have represssions at all.

"It is of special importance for me to know as much as possible about primitive psychology, mythology, archaeology and comparative religion, for the reason that these fields afford me priceless analogies with which I can enrich the associations of my patients."

"...The collective unconscious. By this term I designate an unconscious psychic activity present in all human beings which not only gives rise to symbolical pictures today, but was the source of all similar products of the past. Such pictures (which patients paint or draw) spring from and satisfy a natural need... (to reach back into primitive past and reconcile it with present-day consciousness)."

"Every problem, therefore, brings the possibility of a widening of consciousness - but also the necessity of saying good-bye to child-like unconsciousness and trust in nature. This necessity is a psychic fact of such importance that it constitutes one of the essential symbolic teachings of the Christian religion. It is the sacrifice of the merely natural man - of the unconscious ingenuous being whose tragic career [began with eating an apple in Paradise...]"

"There are no problems without consciousness." (Ie: consider a cared-for baby's carefree state)

"The meaning and design of a problem seem not to lie in its solution, but in our working at it incessantly. This alone preserves us from stultification and petrifaction."

"There is a thinking in primordial images - in symbols which are older than historical man which have been ingrained in him from earliest times, and , eternally living, outlasting all generation, still make up the groundwork of the human psyche. It is only possible to live the fullest life when we are in harmony with these symbols; wisdom is a return to them. It is neither a question of belief nor of knowledge, but of the agreement of our thinking with the primordial images of the unconscious. They are the source of all our conscious thoughts, and one of these primordial thoughts is the idea of life after death. Science (which acknowledges but doesn't understand) and these symbols are incommensurables. They are indispensable conditions of the imagination."

"Primitive man is no less prompt than we are to value an ethical attitude. His good is just as good as ours, and his evil is just as bad as ours. Only the forms under which good and evil appear are different; the process of ethical judgement is the same."

"We seem to know nothing about such psychic phenomena. IE: dissociation and projection. In reality, however, they occur in us too, but we give them more civilized forms of expression. In daily life it happens all the time that we presume that the psychic processes of other people are the same as ours."

"Everything to the primitive man is perfectly objective."

"The passionate interest in these movements arises undoubtedly from psychic energy which can no longer be invested in obsolete forms of religion."

"Quoting a Protestant minister, 'Nowadays people go to the psychotherapist rather than to the clergyman.' "