A different Q15 ----------Question #2

[NOWmormon]

Church members are asked 15 questions during private temple recommend interviews with church leadership.
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But since you are essentially anonymous on this site, how would you answer those same questions here?
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Each day, for the rest of May, please share your honest response to each question, based on what you believe right now.
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2
Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

[LostGirl]

It has been interesting to try to come to a new view of this. I don't think I have figured it out yet.

One of the things that cracked my shelf was the realisation that there was a constant insistence that we are all sinners and need to repent every day. I started wondering what for? I would look around my ward and see people that serve their hearts out and wonder what terrible things they had been doing that they needed to repent for.

The answer was really that no, most people are not committing sins on a daily basis. Mistakes yes, sins no.

So then the logical extension of this line of thought is - why is an atonement needed? I don't think anyone needed to sweat blood because I occasionally yell at my kids or go over the speed limit. It now frustrates me that we are encouraged to take ownership and blame for a sacrifice that seems out of all proportion with the crimes it is supposed to atone for. I am rambling now, not sure if that made sense.

[Mormorrisey]

As I said on the other post, I have more hope than solid belief on this one. I still have lots of time for Jesus, in fact, it was reading the New Testament a couple of years ago, in concert with learning about the mall, that led me here. I'm pretty confident that Jesus would not want "His" church to build a mall, rather than helping the poor, so I'm still hip to the Jesus vibe. Now, do I have a great deal of guilt, that I constantly need to repent and use the Atonement on a daily basis in order to feel better about myself? Not really, but I do hope that the bad things I do I can fix, and most of my repenting these days is when I lose my temper and annoy those I most care about. But instead of just praying about it, I apologize and try to make the relationship better. I would think that Jesus is much more happy about that, than when I just pray about it.

[wtfluff]

2
Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

2) No.

I won't go into details, because my thoughts will probably offend some. I'll just agree with LostGirl in that I no longer see any need for a savior, or an "Atonement."

[oliver_denom]

2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

The honest answer? Yes, but not in any way resembling what the church believes.

The best way I can describe it is that I've adopted a very Jungian perspective toward religion. I won't make this overly complicated. I use certain aspects of Jesus' life and teachings to guide my life and believe that the idea of Jesus can symbolically bring about personal redemption.

Let me give two examples:

1) Jesus taught that the greatest of the commandments were to love God and to love your neighbor as yourself. I use this to ground my morality. My understanding of "god" is basically that which I hold sacred as a human being. This means respecting all life and people as individuals. I use this as a guide in that any decision which violates that sacred feeling towards fellow human beings, or would cause me to treat others as I wouldn't want to be treated, is out of bounds morally.

2) In his book "The Scapegoat" by René Girard, he made the observation that the story of Jesus makes it clear that the sacrifice being made is in fact innocent. This is in contrast to other sacrifices for sin where it was literally believed that the victim was guilty. The story of the death and resurrection of Jesus, to me, means that when we focus our hatred and loathing towards others that we're actually attempting to punish someone else for what's going on inside of ourselves. It allows me to let go of that hatred towards other people, and that by recognizing their innocents, I can find forgiveness within myself. In this way, Jesus helps me forgive others and helps me forgive myself. This, to me, is redemption because it reduces suffering all around. I don't go out into the world passing judgement and punishing, causing the suffering of others, and I don't do the same to myself either consciously or not.

But this isn't what the church means. The church wants to know if you think Jesus was an actual guy who lived 2,000 years ago who was fully god, literally created the planet, actually died, and then actually rose again after three days. They want to know if I believe his literal blood some how cleanses my literal spirit from a literal stain which keeps me out of a literal heaven, but only when I ask forgiveness through approved authorities in a church that Jesus himself literally established personally 1,800 years after he died / didn't die. No, I don't believe any of that.

[Mormorrisey]

Can I borrow you, oliver, when I want to make my points? I wish I could put what's in my head onto paper as you do. This is a perfect explanation on how I feel about the Atonement. It simply doesn't matter if it's "real" or not, as long as it makes my life and the lives around me better. That's exactly how I feel.

[Red Ryder]

I concur with all of the above awesome responses.

Thinking for ourselves is fun!

[alas]

I like Oliver's explanation. I don't know that the historical Jesus was an innocent sacrifice for sin, or that he was God incarnate. But I like the idea and it help me to forgive myself and to love and forgive others. But my view is kind of Buddhist in that I see it as becoming one with the human family.

I want to add the idea that in this theoretical view of becoming one with Christ, we are asked to mourn with those who mourn, just as our baptismal covenant says. To become one with Christ and our fellow humans, we must do what Christ would do, and make restitution for sin. See, sometimes people are very hurt by the sin of someone else. Since I worked with rape victims for years, I will use that example. Now, for the innocent victim to go on with her life, she needs to relearn how to trust humanity. Her trust and ability to love her fellow humans has been violently destroyed, through no fault of her own. For their to be justice in the world, she needs to be given help healing. Well, the rapist is not capable of restitution. So, my part in this Jungian view of Christ, to be one with Christ, I must do what the rapist cannot do. I must show love and help restore her faith in humanity. I must be the shoulder she can lean on to undo the damage from someone else's sin. Then as I am one with Christ, the damage from my sin and mistakes that I cannot make up will be taken care of by someone else who is one with Christ. Say, in anger, I yell at my child that I wish she had never been born. I can't take back my words, not completely. So, other humans around her need to help her see that as a mistake and help her know it was not meant.

This way, we all help the sinner by undoing the damage his sin caused, so his restitution can be complete and he can be forgiven (if and when he does repent) and we all help the victim of sin by undoing the damage of sin, so they can go on with their life. We each do this for each other. We are each Savior, sinner, victim of sin, as we become one with Christ and all who are also one with Christ.

[Corsair]

I think we are getting to a consensus where Oliver has just written something that rivals, if not exceeds, scripture. Basic, universalist Christianity sounds pretty good even if I don't get experience worshipful devotion to the Preacher of Nazareth. My answer to #2 is No, I don't have quite the testimony of Mormon Jesus that the LDS church would prefer, but I'm a big fan of Christian charity and kindness.

[Mad Jax]

2. No, the biblical Christ is a false prophet.

[Jinx]

Nope. I don't even really believe that Jesus existed because the Romans kept great records and there are no records of his execution. If he did exist he was probably a zealot, one of the many "messiahs" wandering the wilderness of Judea at the time.

[Just This Guy]

2. No.

There seam to be conflicting accounts of whether Jesus actually existed, but it is clear that the books of the bible are hugely exaggerated. If he was real, he was a man.

[RubinHighlander]

2) No.

I won't go into details, because my thoughts will probably offend some. I'll just agree with LostGirl in that I no longer see any need for a savior, or an "Atonement."

+2

[Give It Time]

The concept of at-one-ment plus grace. Not Mormon grace, Christian grace.

After a fashion, yes.

[Silver Girl]

Yes but within my own current interpretation or understanding. I believe the mortal part of us (which is a child of God in the mortal form) has to be "sacrificed" for us to be in touch with the spiritual part of us. Our mortal journey is about learning to find the spiritual way to approach everything in life (which doesn't mean obeying some guys in SLC who want clean toilets). The "spiritual way" is about decency, honesty, integrity, and honoring the dignity of others. It does not require reading books, unless those books are helpful to us in that journey.

[Dravin]

2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

No. Of course given my answer for the first question this shouldn't be surprising. I'm curious who would give a Yes/No or a No/Yes? Just what fish is question 2 trying to catch that question 1 missed?

[Hagoth]

I agree to some degree with just about everyone who's commented here. As a symbol for improving your life and treating others well, sure. As a literal person who lived in ancient Judea and was crucified for kicking up dust, probably. Beyond that we know nothing for certain about Jesus, just rumors written down long after his death by people who never met him.

I don't believe the story of Eden and the fall, so, as others have pointed out, redemption in that sense is pointless. It's a nice story that many institutions have used to their advantage.

Mostly, I am saddened by how many people claim to be followers of Jesus and somehow manage to throw him under the bus for their non-Christian behavior.

[MoPag]

Wow. I've learned a lot reading this thread. You guys are a lot further along on your journey about finding out who or what Christ is than I am. I really don't know right now. I love what Alas said about becoming one with the human family. When I think of Christ, that is what I think about.

[redjay]

Yes.

As defined by a belief/hope in a figure called Jesus that the universe has allowed to become a focus for a change for vast swathes of humanity over the last 1500 years to be more 'Christlike', to be part of the evolution of mankind into something better, and to lift us spiritually to prepare us for a life to come.

I am still attracted to the thought that this is a life to learn about good and evil and a school for the eternities, where we will be more perfect - and the model of Jesus helps us to do that, as a species.

[Random]

2
Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

I do.

If I were to expound on that, I would say that he does his work just fine (even better) without a hierarchy that teaches people to follow them, to listen to them, and that they have special access to heaven that we peons are not allowed to have.


I also want to say that he saves us by his knowledge. To me, that means he knows how I, with my defects, sins, and wounds can get from where I am to being with God without guilt. If I open my mind and heart to him, he will teach me what he learned about me when he suffered for me in Gethsemane. More and more, I don't lean toward it being some magical thing, but simply something he went through for each person (stepping outside of time to do it). For example, he walked my path from conception til death, experiencing my pains, my wounds, and the regret and other bad feelings I would feel if/when I realized the pain I had caused others - and he overcame, as if he were me, thus he knows what I need to do to overcome.

All of that is what I would say if I were answering the question and could be totally honest in what I presently think and feel.