What would the church prefer

[LostGirl]

With a family wedding approaching and the TR expired I find myself with 2 choices.

1) nuance my way through the TR interview even though it feels a whole lot like lying (who am I kidding? It would be mostly lies although I feel completely worthy, whatever that means any more)

My bishop is not one who would be the least bit accommodating with alterantive views, or with a woman having a view at all from what I can tell.

2) tell the family that I won't be there, which will lead to questions that will reveal my disaffection, which would likely result in much pain for many people. I don't have to tell you all the huge list of repercussions that this could have.

I know only I can make this decision, but I have come to wonder what the church would prefer I do? Be honest and deal with the fallout, or shut up and pretend all is well?

Sadly I have a feeling they would prefer I "keep sweet" and keep my mouth shut. This is becoming harder and harder to do though.

In part I wonder whether some conflict helps them, with remaining family members choosing to cling even more tightly to the life they know and are comfortable with.

What do you think? Are they fostering a "don't ask don't tell" situation for apostates as long as we don't mention trifling issues like polygamy and actual church history in sunday school? I would love to be able to survey an entire ward or stake to find out exactly how many people are just sticking around to avoid family conflict.

[didyoumythme]

They prefer that you keep your mouth shut! You can nuance your way through if you want...as long as you don't speak up about any issues! Their motto is to "never let the truth get in the way of a testimony!"

[Give It Time]

They prefer that you keep your mouth shut! You can nuance your way through if you want...as long as you don't speak up about any issues! Their motto is to "never let the truth get in the way of a testimony!"

Perfect.

Truthfully, there are all kinds of dishonest, abusive, fraudulent, cruel people in the church and the members are none the wiser, because those truly unworthy people hold a temple recommend and profess to believe. It all really is a farce. Nuance the hell out of it in your own head, but give a brief yes/no answer to the questions. In. Out. Boom. Done.

Really, the church's desires are the last thing I would consider.

Go to your family event. Enjoy yourself. Put your recommend in the drawer for the next two years.

[moksha]

It is like that old Woody Allen joke about not wanting to get rid of his disaffected brother, who thinks he's a chicken, because he wants the tithing eggs.

Don't worry about what the church wants. If you do what is necessary to attend the wedding, just concentrate on its significance for the well-being of your family.

[Newme]

Each situation's unique and you'll do what you feel is right.

My dad not being at several of his children's weddings has kind of strengthened my "testimony" that the temple is used in evil ways. It's used to break up families (after threatening), charges money for worthiness, and is basically anti-Christ - anti what Christ (who loved & welcomed all) is about. Even as a TBM, I saw how some of this was wrong. I can't say for sure, but in the future, if my kids want to marry in the temple, I will hang out in the lobby as my dad did - with the children and others deemed by some in an exclusive club, as unworthy. Deep down, I'll know and feel I'm of worth no matter what group says otherwise.

[Give It Time]

Each situation's unique and you'll do what you feel is right.

My dad not being at several of his children's weddings has kind of strengthened my "testimony" that the temple is used in evil ways. It's used to break up families (after threatening), charges money for worthiness, and is basically anti-Christ - anti what Christ (who loved & welcomed all) is about. Even as a TBM, I saw how some of this was wrong. I can't say for sure, but in the future, if my kids want to marry in the temple, I will hang out in the lobby as my dad did - with the children and others deemed by some in an exclusive club, as unworthy. Deep down, I'll know and feel I'm of worth no matter what group says otherwise.

This reminds me. My FIL didn't attend my wedding because he didn't have a recommend. The sealer set aside an empty chair next to my MIL and said that the chair is a symbol of the one who is missing and that we are holding a place for him.

As a TBM, I thought it a loving gesture. Kind of like leaving the light on for someone. However, when I became NOM I saw this as the passive aggressiveness move it was. Actually it was at this time, my husband expressed for the first time how that stung. How he felt like he and his mother were being shamed for choices his father made. How, what should have been a moment of unmitigated celebration and joy now had a record scratch in it. By this time, our marriage had badly deteriorated and was ending, but I'm glad I was NOM and could tell him he was right, that was cruel, they shouldn't have done that.

I think that anecdote is the answer to your question. What the church wants is your entire family. Period. And if they don't have your entire family, they will use methods that harm, cause pain, mar joyful memories in an attempt to get the entire family.

I think, at this point, the more important question is what does the couple want? It's their day. Make it as joyful as possible.

[StarbucksMom]

It is like that old Woody Allen joke about not wanting to get rid of his disaffected brother, who thinks he's a chicken, because he wants the tithing eggs.

Don't worry about what the church wants. If you do what is necessary to attend the wedding, just concentrate on its significance for the well-being of your family.

Moksha for the win! It is really just about being there with and for your family. JS invented the temple and dedicated the first one. He was a child pedophile who also sent men out of the country so he could have sex with their wives. Pretty sure you're a million times over a better person than that. Go be with your family and DO NOT feel guilty.

[MoPag]

I say get your TR and go. We had a post on the old board about how to get through the TR questions.

My biggest problem with those questions is the one about the Q15. They way I get around it is by saying I believe they have all the keys Christ has given them. I leave out the fact that I don't think Christ would give them the keys to a Vespa.

Look, if there is a higher power worth following, he/she/it/they can't be happy with the church's bullsh*t. I don't think it is a compromise in you or anyone's integrity to jump over said bullsh*t in order to be with and support your family.

[Margarita]

Each situation's unique and you'll do what you feel is right.

My dad not being at several of his children's weddings has kind of strengthened my "testimony" that the temple is used in evil ways. It's used to break up families (after threatening), charges money for worthiness, and is basically anti-Christ - anti what Christ (who loved & welcomed all) is about. Even as a TBM, I saw how some of this was wrong. I can't say for sure, but in the future, if my kids want to marry in the temple, I will hang out in the lobby as my dad did - with the children and others deemed by some in an exclusive club, as unworthy. Deep down, I'll know and feel I'm of worth no matter what group says otherwise.

I love this take on the Temple..never thought of it this way.

[Nonny]

What the church would prefer is that you hold a TR because that is a good metric of the church's success. If they expect total honesty, they should be totally honest themselves. Some people can nuance the questions to fit their personal answers into the prescribed format. Stick simply to yes and no and don't add on. Others need to stop the personal suffering and just say no to the whole process.

I have tried both ways. The last time I got a TR I was borderline on belief, and I reworded the questions in my mind. I think there might be a post on staylds with these suggestions. But that was my last TR, to attend a specific wedding only. After that I could no longer give the church the authority to judge me, so I have not been to an interview since. Like "newme" I rather hoped sitting outside subsequent weddings would lead to a conversation about the hypocrisy imbedded in the exclusion of family members from significant family events. But surprisingly, no one has ever said anything about it. I don't even know what they assume about me.

Sometimes the worst case scenario happens and sometimes it doesn't. Go with your gut.or let the Holy Spirit guide.

[Culper Jr.]

Sadly I have a feeling they would prefer I "keep sweet" and keep my mouth shut.

Yup. That's exactly what they want. The church does not care about the individual outside of the context of what the individual can do for the church.

Generally speaking (there are a few leaders that I think genuinely care and want to help, but they are becoming more uncommon) church leaders are uninterested in giving help that cannot be quantified and then reported to their leaders. It's a losing battle for them to try to help someone that knows a little too much about the problems with history and doctrine because there are no answers to these issues that puts the church in a positive light. Church leaders would rather cut ties, prevent other damage the disaffected may cause, and try to help someone else that they can turn into an obedient tithe paying drone.

The church is not being honest about its history and doctrine, so you really can't deal honestly with the church. Doing so would be one-way; they are free to say whatever ridiculousness they can think up to deal with you. In every case I've read about where they have dealt with the disaffected, they always break their own rules. In the extreme sense, think about all of the "courts of love" that have been documented. They can't even follow their own procedures.

I feel ZERO guilt using nuanced answers in a TR interview. My answers must be okay with God because so far he hasn't seen fit to imbue the bishop with any discernment superpowers to correct me.

[Newme]

Each situation's unique and you'll do what you feel is right.

My dad not being at several of his children's weddings has kind of strengthened my "testimony" that the temple is used in evil ways. It's used to break up families (after threatening), charges money for worthiness, and is basically anti-Christ - anti what Christ (who loved & welcomed all) is about. Even as a TBM, I saw how some of this was wrong. I can't say for sure, but in the future, if my kids want to marry in the temple, I will hang out in the lobby as my dad did - with the children and others deemed by some in an exclusive club, as unworthy. Deep down, I'll know and feel I'm of worth no matter what group says otherwise.

This reminds me. My FIL didn't attend my wedding because he didn't have a recommend. The sealer set aside an empty chair next to my MIL and said that the chair is a symbol of the one who is missing and that we are holding a place for him.

As a TBM, I thought it a loving gesture. Kind of like leaving the light on for someone. However, when I became NOM I saw this as the passive aggressiveness move it was. Actually it was at this time, my husband expressed for the first time how that stung. How he felt like he and his mother were being shamed for choices his father made. How, what should have been a moment of unmitigated celebration and joy now had a record scratch in it. By this time, our marriage had badly deteriorated and was ending, but I'm glad I was NOM and could tell him he was right, that was cruel, they shouldn't have done that.

I think that anecdote is the answer to your question. What the church wants is your entire family. Period. And if they don't have your entire family, they will use methods that harm, cause pain, mar joyful memories in an attempt to get the entire family.

I think, at this point, the more important question is what does the couple want? It's their day. Make it as joyful as possible.

I can relate, GiveitTime. I've heard people say things like that too. It's strange how you come to see it in a very different way. I used to tell my sister I wish she'd have been to temple weddings and things like that. Now, I realize how it probably was hurtful to her - if not just annoying.

Most TBMs don't see how manipulative the church leaders have becoming in using the temple. When Joseph Smith started doing celestial sealings, non-members were welcome to attend. Temples are beautiful inside and out - and it is a place to feel peace and quiet in a busy world, but it seems to me that they're twisting things - mingling BS with goodness.

[Newme]

Each situation's unique and you'll do what you feel is right.

My dad not being at several of his children's weddings has kind of strengthened my "testimony" that the temple is used in evil ways. It's used to break up families (after threatening), charges money for worthiness, and is basically anti-Christ - anti what Christ (who loved & welcomed all) is about. Even as a TBM, I saw how some of this was wrong. I can't say for sure, but in the future, if my kids want to marry in the temple, I will hang out in the lobby as my dad did - with the children and others deemed by some in an exclusive club, as unworthy. Deep down, I'll know and feel I'm of worth no matter what group says otherwise.

I love this take on the Temple..never thought of it this way.

Thanks. Who knows, maybe the reason Jesus went into the wilderness (nature) instead of the temple is because it was more godly to him. It is for me - the only issue is that it's not always comfortably accessible year-round.

[tryingtogetitright]

I think that God would prefer you didn't lie.

I think that disclosure of your disaffection at or around the wedding is a terrible thing to do.

I think many in your position are simply unexpectedly tied up and too late, too sick, helping someone else for an emergency, even volunteering to stay with those who cannot participate to help them feel more welcome, or some other way not to be there without calling attention to not being there.

[Corsair]

I'm with the crowd that votes for lying to get your temple rec. I recognize all of the moral and ethical reasons for not lying. And let's not forget that LDS church policies created and continues to promote this problem. But I'm also a duplicitous scoundrel and I increasingly fear that I should have made a break with the church long ago on policies like this.

I do have a current temple recommend and I have cast aside a pretense that I am "nuancing" my way through the questions. My view is that I love my family far more than I hate the church. I simply see the social interface of LDS culture and I'm using it as much as it supports my goals. But I am completely opposed to how these policies divide families.

[Not Buying It]

Are you still going to let the Church control whether you get to attend family events? Say what you have to say to get the recommend and sleep peacefully at night. You didn't create this situation, do what you have to do to deal with it as best you can. If it offends God, it can't possibly offend him as much as the Church itself does, if he is any kind of a just God.

[LostGirl]

I have been doing some reading. I could always invoke Brigham Young and say I can't go because I have my period and am therefore unclean.

Of course he also said that a man had to not touch a woman for ten days before, in which case I am pretty sure the temples would all be permanently empty.

In all seriousness, the deadline looms and it feels like I am being forced to choose whether to out myself and burn my bridges or not.

[ulmite]

Well, the Church would prefer that you stick around, for damage control as well as a chance (even very small) of getting you back.

You shouldn't feel guilty about jumping through the hoops to get your TR renewed. If you can honestly answer yes to the last question, you're A-OK, every other question is useless. If not, remind yourself that you are not trying to break into the temple to disrespect the mormon rituals, you just want to attend. You're not sneaking in to do temple work, you're coming to support your family.

[2bizE]

I think the church would prefer you just like and don't stir the pot. The church prefers to live in disbelief and to lie to itself and its own members to keep up appearances.