Some Truths Are Just Very Harmful

[Give It Time]

I'm a bit of an unusual case. I happen to think some things in our church history needs​ to go down the memory hole, or at least presented in a very different way.

Example 1

Some direct descendants of Martin Harris used to live in my ward. Nice family. Good family. Intelligent family. One day, during Sunday School, the lesson was on the lost pages. You know the story. Well, there was a point during the lesson where the question was asked, "What can we learn from this story?" One member raised their hand and said, "we learn not to question the Lord". This person then related a story about how their teenager wasn't cooperating and this person said to their child, "Don't be like Martin Harris!" I happened to have the living Brother Harris within my line of sight while this story was being told and I saw his face turn red with repressed rage. Interestingly, that is the last time I remember seeing the Harris's at church.

Martin Harris repented. The Lord forgave him. That means The Lord, our God, will remember the sin no more and we are obliged to do the same. That story should have never been canonized, should never have become part of our lore, should never have made it into a talk or lesson manual. Martin repented and, in the Lord's view, it's as if it never happened. I realize it's a part of our history and it would have come out. However, if people tried to accuse us of hiding the story, the simple rebuttal would be, "the man repented".

Example 2

I'll start by summarizing: The Miracle Of Forgiveness I could write extensively about how what the church teaches about rape is damaging, but I have a feeling a lot of people have their own stories of angst brought on by this book and might not cry if this book was actually burned.

However, I can see the argument for keeping this book around if it's presented in a "never again" spirit.

Just a couple of my thoughts. I actually think there are some things in our history and our doctrine that might be better off forgotten.

[blazerb]

I get what you are saying, but I think it is better to realize that the lesson from many of these stories is not the one that some people try to assign them. I am sure you are correct that we need to present these stories in different ways. The lesson of the Martin Harris story is that if you are going to pretend to receive revelation, you better make a backup in case someone tries to test your abilities. Martin Harris was not a rebellious teenager. He was a man who had sunk a lot of time and money into a speculative venture without his wife's approval. Why shouldn't he be able to show her the fruits of his sacrifice? Joseph could have continued to say, "no." It was not Martin's fault, alone. Clearly the member involved in your story had a lack of empathy (and probably a lack of understanding of teenagers).

My great-great=great-great uncle was shot and killed by Porter Rockwell. My great=great-great-great grandmother called him a "bloody-handed murder." Whenever people start telling the hero stories of Brother Rockwell, I like to throw this one in just to make a point. I want more stories remembered. They tend to round out our understanding.

Any story that is used to harm or manipulate people is being used inappropriately. I think you're right that some stories are more likely to be used in a hurtful way. I certainly wouldn't cry if Miracle of Forgiveness went away, but I do want to show my kids someday what kind of awful teachings have be promulgated by men claiming special authority from God.

There are stories that are best forgotten, though. There are some I will take to my grave. There are many that I really want to share, though.

[Palerider]

I'd like to see the story of the missing 116 pages told in another light.
Sympathy for Martin being duped by a young confidence man still honing his skills.
Cudos to Martin's wife for trying to rid the world of pseudo scripture and extricate her husband from a scheme to exploit their hard earned money.
Technically I suppose Martin did not keep his word and was responsible in a way for the destruction of Joseph's property but I doubt the Lord was too concerned about it.

He probably shook his head watching Joseph come up with the ridiculous story about evil men waiting to see if he could re-translate and then alter the original to make him look bad.
The moral here is get a good education or if you're too poor for that, then apprentice with someone in a good trade and make an honest living for yourself.
Leave the easy money schemes alone.....they can get you killed at an early age....

[Give It Time]

Actually, I like the retelling of it in a way that doesn't make Martin look bad. This is a tough story, because Martin repented. We need to stop punishing him. I also know this is a story of fraud clearly being exposed and it's Joseph well needs to be held to account.

[Rob4Hope]

Ah yes....the Miracle of Forgiveness.

The shaming that keeps on giving and giving, generation after generation.

Its mis-named. It should be The Hoplessness of Damnation & the Sins that will get you there

[Hagoth]

Cudos to Martin's wife for trying to rid the world of pseudo scripture and extricate her husband from a scheme to exploit their hard earned money.

Amen. I once considered Lucy Harris one of the great villains of all time, now I think she was the only person involved who was acting rationally. I think that instead of burying the story we should take it out and really apply the baloney detection kit to it. I know times were different then, but the way Harris treated his wife should be held up as a cautionary tale as an example of being a bad husband.

There are so many of these. How about "Don't be like Thomas Marsh!" I say no, DO be like Thomas Marsh. Be brave enough to stand up to injustice and know when you need to walk away. I think the lesson is don't be like George A. Smith, or the GAs who still tell this story. Don't spread lies to belittle people who don't sell their individuality for mindless obedience.

As for The Miracle of Forgiveness, if I had my way we would dig Spencer Kimball's corpse up, drag it before a Court O' Love and excommunicate his ass.

[Mad Jax]

I must have selectively interpreted the book because I really liked Miracle of Forgiveness. I felt it was a book that made me understand the true internal change of repentance.

[Rob4Hope]

I must have selectively interpreted the book because I really liked Miracle of Forgiveness. I felt it was a book that made me understand the true internal change of repentance.

Congrats MJ, if that was your experience I am happy for you. Many (and I know of many) struggled with the book.

That book is lop-sided in a lot of ways. An example is given by a guy named Romel Mackelprang who wrote a Dialogue article several years ago. Here is the exact quote:

"For example, in The Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball devotes fifteen pages to the pitfalls of sexual impurity, adds a line briefly condoning a "normal and controlled sex life," but offers no elaboration on what constitutes controlled sex (1969, 74, emphasis added).

This is one example among many of how that book, for some, has backfired and caused more damage than it helped.

I was injured when my own mistakes were likened to the Prodigal Son, and Kimball made it VERY VERY clear that the eternal blessings of the Prodigal were lost forever and could never be regained. What was he saying there?...and then later on saying: "Oh you can be forgiven"?....HUNH?

Which is it? You have lost your blessings or you haven't?

This was my first experience with serious and profound "mental gymnastics". My conclusion was: "You can be saved in the Celestial Kingdom, but the gift of Eternal Life is forever lost".

At the time, that was the ONLY way I could harmonize the book.

Some people considered suicide after reading the book. People just experience it differently. For me, the book was toxic.

[Palerider]

I must have selectively interpreted the book because I really liked Miracle of Forgiveness. I felt it was a book that made me understand the true internal change of repentance.

I was injured when my own mistakes were likened to the Prodigal Son, and Kimball made it VERY VERY clear that the eternal blessings of the Prodigal were lost forever and could never be regained. What we has saying there?...and then later on saying: "Oh you can be forgiven"?....HUNH?

Which is it? You have lost your blessings or you haven't?

This was my first experience with serious and profound "mental gymnastics". My conclusion was: "You can be saved in the Celestial Kingdom, but the gift of Eternal Life is forever lost".

At the time, that was the ONLY way I could harmonize the book.

Some people considered suicide after reading the book. People just experience it differently. For me, the book was toxic.

I was kind of in the same camp as Mad Jax on this one and was surprised to find those who really had difficulty with the book....but I was younger then.

Holland has a similar take on the Prodigal. And this is the huge unseen problem within Mormon doctrine.

Once you have sinned how could you possibly receive the same reward as someone who didn't, even after repentance? I was taught that even with repentance you will always be "behind" the guy who didn't sin. And that's where Mormon leadership make themselves into the arrogant, resentful son who couldn't understand how the Father could restore the Prodigal to his former status.

This is why the church almost never discusses the parable of the laborers. Some are called in the morning, some at midday, some in the late day but all are paid the same agreed upon wage. So why are those called in the morning resentful? They are given the proper wage and are done no harm. The master decides to be generous to those who came later. It's His choice. Will we be resentful because God chooses to be loving and kind to those who return to Him?

It's called Grace folks and LDS leadership and Joseph Smith don't and didn't understand it.

Justice is getting what you deserve. Mercy is NOT getting what you deserve. Grace is getting BETTER than what you deserve.

[alas]

As a counselor to rape victims, I had five or six clients who had survived a suicide attempt. Telling a rape victim that she would have been much better off before the Lord if she had died during the attack is saying, "you would be better off dead" and so these women attempted to fix the situation of having accidently survived the rape by doing what the rapist should have done and killing themselves.

Yeah, that book needs to be taught as the most horrible example of how men's thinking gets twisted into knots when they confuse virtue with virginity and think only in terms of women as an *object* that needs to be kept pure to be of any worth.

As far as how the church teaches the Martin Harris Story, as well as the T B Marsh story, I think it teaches one very very bad lesson to men. Think about what those two stories have in common.


Think hard, cause it is not obvious to most men.


OK, I won't make you come up with the answer yourself. But both men sided with their wife against the church. Marsh believed his wife when she told him she had not stripped the cream off the milk. Harris had been having an ongoing fight with his wife about the fact that she thought he was being conned and didn't want to lose their farm. So, he wanted to prove to her that there was a story that Joseph was translating. They were both trying to save their marriage against what "prophecy" was trying to do to their marriage. It was "inspired priesthood authority" that said Mrs Marsh was guilty. It was the prophet himself who said it wasn't a good idea to show the manuscript to a doubter. But Joseph was perfectly willing to con Martin Harris out of his money and farm against his wife's better judgement and so Joseph expected Martin to throw his own wife under the bus and remain loyal to Joseph. And with Thomas Marsh, the expectation was the same. He was e pecked to throw his wife under the bus and stay loyal. Harris was a fool and eventually threw his wife and well being as well as his farm all under the bus to prove his loyality to Joseph, while Thomas was the wiser of the two and left the church in support of his wife (if the story were true, which it isn't, but that is a different story. He really left the church over polygamy, but I personally think his doubts got started over his wife being called a thief and liar and so there is some truth to the story.

But my main point is, with both stories, men are taught to put church ahead of their wife with each time either story gets told.

[Give It Time]

I'm absolutely loving the way this thread is going!

I'm glad someone brought in Marsh. I know that's another one, but didn't know enough to write about it. I've adjusted my view. I know that hiding things can be very damaging. I now don't think the lost pages story should have been canonized. The manual is fine.

Abusive as the church is, I still think that if those men repented, we need to stop beating them up in Sunday School and over the conference pulpit, but the stories can still be told and what will be told is a richer, more complex story.

At this point, I'm learning a lot from the posts. Thank you for the contributions, everyone.

[Rob4Hope]

Yeh...well I got another one. Remember the birth place of the "sin next to murder" is Corianton in Alma 39?

OK...so as the story goes, this guy had some troubles on his mission--he made a big mistake. His father, the prophet, gets right into his face and lays out the law that this sin was "next to murder".

Later on, however, this guy repents and is referred to as a Man of God. He is even considered as a possible candidate for being the record keeper, which is SERIOUS GA WORK.

He repented,...clearly. But, the story is re-told over and over and over to teach a supposed doctrine. In most of the discussions I was aware of, the emphasis is on the sin of Corianton, not the "repentance" he did.

Seems to me the church emphasizes the repentance of some if it suits their purposes or protects their character (according to the church's wishes), and throws others under the bus.

Mixed standard, and dishonest if you ask me...

[Give It Time]

Yeh...well I got another one. Remember the birth place of the "sin next to murder" is Corianton in Alma 39?

OK...so as the story goes, this guy had some troubles on his mission--he made a big mistake. His father, the prophet, gets right into his face and lays out the law that this sin was "next to murder".

Later on, however, this guy repents and is referred to as a Man of God. He is even considered as a possible candidate for being the record keeper, which is SERIOUS GA WORK.

He repented,...clearly. But, the story is re-told over and over and over to teach a supposed doctrine. In most of the discussions I was aware of, the emphasis is on the sin of Corianton, not the "repentance" he did.

Seems to me the church emphasizes the repentance of some if it suits their purposes or protects their character (according to the church's wishes), and throws others under the bus.

Mixed standard, and dishonest if you ask me...

Pretty much sums it up. It's what serves the church.

Tangent warning:

Your using "sin next to murder" reminded me of this. This is what we are taught from least to worst are the worst sins:

Adultery
Murder
Son of perdition

Here's how it actually goes

Adultery
Murder
Son of perdition
Divorce

[20/20hind]

Cudos to Martin's wife for trying to rid the world of pseudo scripture and extricate her husband from a scheme to exploit their hard earned money.

Amen. I once considered Lucy Harris one of the great villains of all time, now I think she was the only person involved who was acting rationally. I think that instead of burying the story we should take it out and really apply the baloney detection kit to it. I know times were different then, but the way Harris treated his wife should be held up as a cautionary tale as an example of being a bad husband.

There are so many of these. How about "Don't be like Thomas Marsh!" I say no, DO be like Thomas Marsh. Be brave enough to stand up to injustice and know when you need to walk away. I think the lesson is don't be like George A. Smith, or the GAs who still tell this story. Don't spread lies to belittle people who don't sell their individuality for mindless obedience.

As for The Miracle of Forgiveness, if I had my way we would dig Spencer Kimball's corpse up, drag it before a Court O' Love and excommunicate his ass.

I like the way you think hagoth!

[Palerider]

Yeh...well I got another one. Remember the birth place of the "sin next to murder" is Corianton in Alma 39?

OK...so as the story goes, this guy had some troubles on his mission--he made a big mistake. His father, the prophet, gets right into his face and lays out the law that this sin was "next to murder".

Later on, however, this guy repents and is referred to as a Man of God. He is even considered as a possible candidate for being the record keeper, which is SERIOUS GA WORK.

He repented,...clearly. But, the story is re-told over and over and over to teach a supposed doctrine. In most of the discussions I was aware of, the emphasis is on the sin of Corianton, not the "repentance" he did.

Seems to me the church emphasizes the repentance of some if it suits their purposes or protects their character (according to the church's wishes), and throws others under the bus.

Mixed standard, and dishonest if you ask me...

As I recall Corianton was sent right back out (after 15 minutes of repentance) to continue his mission.
I actually asked my mission president why we currently excommunicate missionaries for fornication and send them home in disgrace but Corianton gets a slap on the wrist?
He indicated that Alma, being his father and the prophet, could discern how deep Corianton's repentance had been.
Unfortunately at 19 years of age I couldn't discern how deep the B.S. was.....

Remember, in the church it's not what you know but who you know that counts.

[Give It Time]

Yeh...well I got another one. Remember the birth place of the "sin next to murder" is Corianton in Alma 39?

OK...so as the story goes, this guy had some troubles on his mission--he made a big mistake. His father, the prophet, gets right into his face and lays out the law that this sin was "next to murder".

Later on, however, this guy repents and is referred to as a Man of God. He is even considered as a possible candidate for being the record keeper, which is SERIOUS GA WORK.

He repented,...clearly. But, the story is re-told over and over and over to teach a supposed doctrine. In most of the discussions I was aware of, the emphasis is on the sin of Corianton, not the "repentance" he did.

Seems to me the church emphasizes the repentance of some if it suits their purposes or protects their character (according to the church's wishes), and throws others under the bus.

Mixed standard, and dishonest if you ask me...

As I recall Corianton was sent right back out (after 15 minutes of repentance) to continue his mission.
I actually asked my mission president why we currently excommunicate missionaries for fornication and send them home in disgrace but Corianton gets a slap on the wrist?
He indicated that Alma, being his father and the prophet, could discern how deep Corianton's repentance had been.

This indicated to me how far I've come. I no longer get upset at a statement like this. To think a prophet could discern this is just hilarious!

I think Mormons have to be the most gullible people on earth, bless our hearts.

[Rob4Hope]

As I recall Corianton was sent right back out (after 15 minutes of repentance) to continue his mission.
I actually asked my mission president why we currently excommunicate missionaries for fornication and send them home in disgrace but Corianton gets a slap on the wrist?
He indicated that Alma, being his father and the prophet, could discern how deep Corianton's repentance had been.
Unfortunately at 19 years of age I couldn't discern how deep the B.S. was.....

Remember, in the church it's not what you know but who you know that counts.

OK....well,...tangent but applicable to some of this.

I know a couple who had a powerful father inside the church. That father arranged for this couple to get married "in the Temple". They had no business being there--neither one of them had any testimony whatsoever; however, they did have a powerful friend in a high place. An arrangement was made (and this was like 70 years ago), 2 non-believers went into the temple and were sealed, and the supposed "discernment" was that they were worthy...

yeh right.

This whole idea of "discernment" is laughable. The standards are mixed and smeared.

There is a stigma for missionaries being sent home early from their missions--at least there was during my time as a TBM. It destroyed lives...

Tangent warning myself.....

I know a therapist along the Wasatch Front, close to the main Murray IHC Hospital (how is that for accuracy?). She works with hundreds of RMs. I didn't know it at the time, but I mentioned to her in a different conversation that I often wondered about myself, because my mission was NOT the "best 2 years of my life." She said: "You and about everyone else..." I said: "What do you mean?"...

She then went onto explain how there are MANY RMs who are dealing with horrible mental health problems BECAUSE of their missions, and that the idea of it being the "best 2 years of your life" is a myth, perpetuated to create a false standard used to encourage others to go.

Interesting discussion.

[deacon blues]

This thread reminds me how much the LDS culture misunderstands grace, and how it screws up the culture. I as a boy I knew my Mom loved me just as I was, it was her gift to me. But I didn't think my Dad, or God loved me unless I got better. I'm generalizing, but that's fairly accurate. Now, I'm working with the Concept of a God who does accept me as I am, and I believe it's making a big difference.

[blazerb]

This thread reminds me how much the LDS culture misunderstands grace, and how it screws up the culture. I as a boy I knew my Mom loved me just as I was, it was her gift to me. But I didn't think my Dad, or God loved me unless I got better. I'm generalizing, but that's fairly accurate. Now, I'm working with the Concept of a God who does accept me as I am, and I believe it's making a big difference.

Not just the culture, but our scriptures include onerous conditions on grace. For example, Moroni 10:32 states:

Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

So, we are only entitled to grace after we have denied "all ungodliness." This is vague enough that apologists can certainly wave it away, but specific enough to entitle a leader to insist on all sorts of conditions to receiving forgiveness from the church. Why do we need forgiveness from the church anyway? When I sin, I hurt another person. I will do my best to rectify that. If there is a God I have offended, then I need to seek forgiveness there as well. None of my sins should require the forgiveness of the church.

[Palerider]

[quote="Give It Time" post_id=14884 time=1494245467




This indicated to me how far I've come. I no longer get upset at a statement like this. To think a prophet could discern this is just hilarious!

I think Mormons have to be the most gullible people on earth, bless our hearts.
[/quote]


Well, I wouldn't doubt that a true prophet can be given the gift of discernment but when you seriously read this account and think it over, doesn't something about it just not ring true? Something about this just doesn't seem realistic to me. It's not the way the Lord I have come to know behaves.
And this is why I don't/can't believe the BOM.

I just get a phony feeling from this book every time I've read it (seven times cover to cover). Does it have a few truths written in? Sure. Does it "testify" of Christ? Sure.
Does that make it an actual record of real people?

NO WAY....

It's as phony as the day is long. A person is better off reading the Chronicles of Narnia because at least it's honest about what it is.