What would make you change your mind?

[Mad Jax]

I am so far gone- the only thing that would change my mind is a visit from Jesus himself.

Honestly I'd assume it was mental illness if I saw that. Something more empirical would be necessary for me. I'd have to see the signature of god in nature or something (like a non-deterministic mathematical sequence inside DNA that could only be reasonably considered deliberate) which others could also empirically verify. I'd need my testimony "peer reviewed" for lack of a better term.

[Give It Time]

Thanks DB. I think it would take a good ten years to get it accepted, then we'd start hearing testimonies about his martial arts for our young women is the Lord's way.

[Mad Jax]

I want there to be an LDS temple full of ass kicking Mormon nuns. And by "temple" I mean one on a mountain top where people go to seek wisdom and challenge the master.

[RubinHighlander]

I am so far gone- the only thing that would change my mind is a visit from Jesus himself.

This, AND, he would have a lot of explaining to do. The God of the bible and the BOM is a respecter of persons, some were special and some were not and the special ones often had permission to kill the non-special ones; if God himself wasn't being angry and mean or letting Satan do it. But really the same threads of BS run through all the religions that man has made up and I'm convinced that any of the Gods that anyone claims to know anything about are all man-made, as are the institutions that men created to rule over people. I'm so much happier to be out of and beyond the world of religion and have no desire to be plugged back into the Matrix.

[Grace2Daisy]

Writing me a check for all of the tithing I paid for 40 years. If you forgive the fox for stealing your chickens, he'll then steal your sheep.

In short. . . . . it will never happen.

[Anon70]

I don't think I can ever go back to full belief. My parents might argue I never had true belief and that also could be true. But I used to at least try. I don't think I could even try again. So...I guess the answer is nothing......

[Give It Time]

I want there to be an LDS temple full of ass kicking Mormon nuns. And by "temple" I mean one on a mountain top where people go to seek wisdom and challenge the master.

First of all, I'm crazy about my sons and wouldn't trade them for the world.

If the church hadn't pushed marriage and family as the only acceptable option. If the church had said that it is important to pursue the path you feel God has put in you, I probably would have been one of those ass kicking nuns.

[Mad Jax]

You should say "Time to take the Word to the streets!" and push an elder off his bicycle before riding off.

[Mad Jax]

[Give It Time]

You should say "Time to take the Word to the streets!" and push an elder off his bicycle before riding off.

Aww! I wouldn't be mean like that. My sons are mission aged.

[Mad Jax]

You should say "Time to take the Word to the streets!" and push an elder off his bicycle before riding off.

Aww! I wouldn't be mean like that. My sons are mission aged.

Someone besides me should probably train you then

[Give It Time]

You should say "Time to take the Word to the streets!" and push an elder off his bicycle before riding off.

Aww! I wouldn't be mean like that. My sons are mission aged.

Someone besides me should probably train you then

You speak wisdom, Grasshopper.

[Mad Jax]

To be honest, I really do like the idea of teaching the YW that they should learn to be safe and how to escape a situation. If they aren't already, teach them that at the moment danger is realized, get away and get out of the danger zone. Don't concern yourself with modesty (i.e.. don't waste a precious half second to grab your top) just escape the situation. A bit of offensive training would most certainly help but there's no way to completely discount the general physical superiority of a male. So don't duke it out. Escape.

I'm sure this is taught to some in the YW but I doubt it's universal.

[Nonny]

Wow Give It Time, you put some serious thought into your post. If we had that kind of environment I may not have left in the first place.

Did you mention priesthood for women? Because full equality of opportunity for men and women might make me change my mind. Less emphasis on obedience to man made rules and roles, and more emphasis on each person reaching their full potential, whatever that might look like.

I think I recall having self-defense as a homemaking night class some time in the past. Obviously it is not a high priority subject like baking bread or food storage. Don't quote me, I haven't been to homemaking for years, or whatever they are calling it now.

[Abinidied]

I am so far gone- the only thing that would change my mind is a visit from Jesus himself.

. . . AND a recent photo ID.

[Give It Time]

Wow Give It Time, you put some serious thought into your post. If we had that kind of environment I may not have left in the first place.

Did you mention priesthood for women? Because full equality of opportunity for men and women might make me change my mind. Less emphasis on obedience to man made rules and roles, and more emphasis on each person reaching their full potential, whatever that might look like.

I think I recall having self-defense as a homemaking night class some time in the past. Obviously it is not a high priority subject like baking bread or food storage. Don't quote me, I haven't been to homemaking for years, or whatever they are calling it now.

I'm going to answer both MadJax and you in the same post.

First of all, I was listening to some of the recent drivel still being perpetuated that women and girls are somehow "asking for it", because the people perpetuating the drivel believe that rape only happens when a female is dressed a certain way, behaving a certain way or is in a certain setting. It is completely untrue and a dangerous myth. Then, I just blurted out to the radio, if that's what you really believe, then train the young women in martial arts so they have at least a fighting chance of defending themselves. If you're not going to get your mind out of that rut, at least have the integrity to protect the women within that paradigm.

That's how the idea came about. MadJax, you are absolutely right about the size differential and the young women should be taught bad-ass self defense. At least six months to a year in something like Krav Maga and running like hell. Maybe some parkour to get practice in going over fences and walls quickly. However, there are disciplines of martial arts designed for women and I'm especially thinking of Wing Chung, developed by a badass nun. I like the whole idea of martial arts training for the young women, in general. The young women will be doing something healthy, will give them strength and confidence. They'll carry themselves differently. There's also character training in martial arts that would be compatible with what the church teaches. It's progressive and mastery takes a long time which makes it a pretty good match for a young women's program. I also like the idea of the presiding priesthood holder putting on a padded suit and making himself useful. Brings a smile to my heart.

Nonny, I remember going to a self defense training, one night, long ago. I think the church recognizes the need for it. That's why they have the one night demonstration, but the church really harps on and shames the young women for rape. See, what alas said, up thread is really important, here. Rape is never the woman's fault. It is the rapist's fault. End of story. The church really needs to aggressively disavow and purge anything ever said about this and take up a new line of discussion on this. I will confess. I happen to think there are some teachings and thoughts in our past that do need to be buried, or at least, presented in a "never again" way, but that can be another thread.

Anyway, the culture, wider society and church is so messed up about rape and everything about it, I think it will take quite a few generations for things to actually change. That's why I don't think one night of a self-defense demonstration will cut it. Not that I think you were promoting that. I'm writing more to faithful lurkers with that statement. With the self-defense training that is several months to several years long, a certain unraveling of the crap myths that will have a young woman projecting shame and vulnerability, making her a target for a predator, will be undone.

As to priesthood for women. *HEAVY SIGH*. It's necessary. That's my view. Either the priesthood for women is necessary or women should leave the church. That is my truth. However, I know the odds of that happening are pretty close to non-existent. So, I wrote my plan out with the paradigm that none of the doctrines are changed, but members are given alternatives to design their church experience so they can avoid to a very large degree the constant purveying of holy sausage. Personally, I think it would be fantastic if one of those inter-meeting sacrament services was done by the young men and the other done by the young women.

[redjay]

a) an experience that convinced me that the church was important for my salvation - would need to be spiritual and meaningful to me and not easily explained away as conditioning, self hypnosis or sheer emotion, or a psychotic episode.

Or

b) to actually enjoy church and its offerings


Or

C) to believe the church was a magnificent force for good in the world

Or

d) to feel as though church aided me in progressing to be a better person


Unfortunately I'm drawing a blank on all four at the moment.

[Rebel]

I like all the suggestions given here by Give it time !!! those are right on and would keep many members in .

[Can of Worms]

I don't think I can ever go back to full belief. My parents might argue I never had true belief and that also could be true. But I used to at least try. I don't think I could even try again. So...I guess the answer is nothing......

Ditto. I don't believe the Joseph Smith story so there is nothing the church can do that would bring me back. My view of God doesn't align with the church's teachings and i think the church's treatment of women, blacks, and LGBT is abhorrent I don't think there is a place for me there.

[Give It Time]

I like all the suggestions given here by Give it time !!! those are right on and would keep many members in .

Thank you, Rebel. I've been on NOM a long time. A lot of these suggestions have just been gleaned over the years.