Diagram as requested

[Thoughtful]

In the intro thread I was asked to diagram the conditioning process of behaviors we call "feeling the spirit" in children and youth. Apologies in advance if phone typing does weird autocorrect... more of a description than diagram this time but here you go, I'll use testimony mtg as an example:

Respondent conditioning (Pavlov) is:

unconditioned stimulus (us) --> unconditioned response (ur)

And

US + neutral stimulus (ns) --> UR

NS now = conditioned stimulus (CS)

CS --> Response (same as UR, but now it is a conditioned response CR).

So what was paired with the US is the CS and it now elicits the same response that the US does.

Consider standing in front of others and speaking or singing. This is a US for most people creating a UR of fast heart rate, sweating, accelerated breath. (Oversimplifying... most have a learning history here also but for the sake of brevity). The thought of doing so, is paired with the action. Soon the thought, under the same environmental conditions as the action was previously, now the thought will elicit the same physical responses. This = "the spirit strongly told me i needed to get up and bear my testimony". In fact it was a conditioned physical response interpreted as urgency from the spirit.

Now you bear testimony and the US increases in intensity. : Now "the spirit" is making you cry. You get done, and relief (operant conditioning/skinner we would say you escaped from an aversive of speaking in front of people). You have experienced negative reinforcement via escape from an aversive. Neurologically, there is a surge of chemicals that add up to what we could call "relief" which is pleasant. Also endorphins which are incredibly addicting. Additionally, mom, dad, the bishop and your primary teacher who were touched by the spirit working on you (tears, etc) give positive reinforcement (praise, cookies after church, shake hands, or maybe someone quotes you a few minutes later. Neurologically there is a chemical cocktail including oxytocin happening here as well -- love and bonding hormone. The combination of these factors, added to rule factors ("if you bear testimony, HF blesses you") influence the probability you'll bear testimony again in the future. You're placed on a fairly intense complex schedule of reinforcement.

Additionally, since you bore testimony, mom gets a shout out in RS. This creates a motivating operation for her to also encourage, and reward you for, testimonies in the future.

Modeling also plays a factor. Down the road, we also create potential pairings of tears with oxytocin (crying at the hallmark commercial? How about girls camp testimony meeting?) Feelings of attachment, community, and bonding are paired with testimonies or with other labels of "the spirit" again and again.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

This is fascinating, thanks for sharing.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

I would be interested in your views of "individuation" in adult development. How did those of us who have made it here break the conditioning? What factors are in play for what some here call "the disaffection algorithm"?

Also have you studied James Fowler's work on stages of faith and do you feel that is a good framework to describe the process of disaffection for Mormons? Is it safe to assume a stage 4 for most of us here?

[Red Ryder]

Thanks for posting this. It's interesting to think that as pre-disaffected parents we've been doing this to our kids unknowingly and conditioning them for life. Now it's so obvious.

I would be interested in your views of "individuation" in adult development. How do those of us who have made it here break the conditioning? What factors are in play for what some here call "the disaffection algorithm"?

I've been interested in this for quite some time. For years after my faith transition I've tried to come up with a standard formula or algorithm to apply to my wife but I've come to realize there are common themes but disaffection is highly individualized. What bothers me doesn't bother her. The only factor I know of is polygamy. That seems to bother nearly all women. Lately I'm tempted just to walk up to her naked with an apple and say, "Eve, the church isn't true! Partake of this apple and let me show you!"

[Thoughtful]

I would be interested in your views of "individuation" in adult development. How did those of us who have made it here break the conditioning? What factors are in play for what some here call "the disaffection algorithm"?

Also have you studied James Fowler's work on stages of faith and do you feel that is a good framework to describe the process of disaffection for Mormons? Is it safe to assume a stage 4 for most of us here?

In terms of conditioning, the reinforcements are no longer occurring (extinction, like when you stop flipping the light switch 6 hours into the power outage), they are no longer motivating (i.e. satiated as when you eat ice cream daily you no longer want it), and/or, the rules governing the behavior haven't played out as actually controlling it. For example, mom tells you don't play on the train tracks or you'll get hit, so you don't. Until after say 5 years you learn that not only do trains not run on that line, but the track is actually segmented down the line and trains cannot run on it. The Rule, even if it's still being stated, will not influence behavior anymore. On the flip side, if you saw someone get hit by a train, even if you never did, you'd probably not go out on the tracks, ever.

Fowler is fairly new to me, but my concern is that similar to Kohlberg, it's hard to define and study higher order stages when few people attain them, especially the higher you go. So, the earlier stages are probably more accurate than the later ones, but there seems to be quite a bit that resonates. Myself, I don't see everything development wise as linear. Quadrants, plots, and gradients make more sense to me as people refine their views. Some seem to broaden, others narrow, some file off the rough edges, and some are willfully stubborn in refusing to do anything.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

How does the conditioning work in the case of adult converts, is it the same pattern?

[Newme]

I would be interested in your views of "individuation" in adult development. How did those of us who have made it here break the conditioning? What factors are in play for what some here call "the disaffection algorithm"?

Also have you studied James Fowler's work on stages of faith and do you feel that is a good framework to describe the process of disaffection for Mormons? Is it safe to assume a stage 4 for most of us here?

In terms of conditioning, the reinforcements are no longer occurring (extinction, like when you stop flipping the light switch 6 hours into the power outage), they are no longer motivating (i.e. satiated as when you eat ice cream daily you no longer want it), and/or, the rules governing the behavior haven't played out as actually controlling it. For example, mom tells you don't play on the train tracks or you'll get hit, so you don't. Until after say 5 years you learn that not only do trains not run on that line, but the track is actually segmented down the line and trains cannot run on it. The Rule, even if it's still being stated, will not influence behavior anymore. On the flip side, if you saw someone get hit by a train, even if you never did, you'd probably not go out on the tracks, ever.

Fowler is fairly new to me, but my concern is that similar to Kohlberg, it's hard to define and study higher order stages when few people attain them, especially the higher you go. So, the earlier stages are probably more accurate than the later ones, but there seems to be quite a bit that resonates. Myself, I don't see everything development wise as linear. Quadrants, plots, and gradients make more sense to me as people refine their views. Some seem to broaden, others narrow, some file off the rough edges, and some are willfully stubborn in refusing to do anything.

Interesting, thanks for sharing this.

How do you think we could use conditioning for us? I consider myself mostly past stage 4, but a part of me is quite skeptical and not exactly "emotionally intelligent." And newer research says that EQ (emotional intelligence) is more important to success than IQ. Another poster mentioned "functional illusions are priceless." Finding things that motivate us is really good, and there's the idea that "excellence is not a single act, but a habit." So, what would you (or anyone else who has ideas) say are some ways to use this human tendency toward conditioning to work for us?

[Thoughtful]

How does the conditioning work in the case of adult converts, is it the same pattern?

Every new convert needs a friend (positive social reinforcement). A job (essentially another set of reinforcement contingencies and rules associated with future rewards) and the good word of God (repetition of ideas).

It's the same pattern, yes. Every person's learning history and motivations (what they are needing or seeking) is different. Church will factor in as something that provides reinforcement or it won't, but if the contingencies are working as reinforcers, those people keep coming back.