Limited Eternal Progression Theory

[moksha]

A number of years ago on an LDS discussion board I wanted to know how in the course of Eternal Progression we would not reach a point where the yearnings which lead us to desire the idea of a heavenly polygamy harem would be abandoned. I wanted to know the point where our Celestial IQ might bring us beyond the earthly appetites for the flesh. I learned that my fellow Mormons believed that beyond the ability to solve the most advanced celestial mechanics equations and maybe know the correct answers on the history of everything test and have our perceptions extend beyond the confines of time and space, we would retain our same personality and sexual desires. I am wondering if they are selling the whole notion of becoming advanced beyond our wildest dreams a bit short.

What are your thoughts on this subject?

[Rob4Hope]

If they are not married or given in marriage past the resurrection, how did God get married to Mary so as to make Jesus?

Eternal Progression never made sense to me however its been explained. And I am tired of the "its just a miracle" response.

Moksha...don't you know the answer?....."you just gotta have faith"...."some things we are not meant to understand right now..."

[Palerider]

Puting on TBM hat:

It's been my understanding that having had an "eternity" of pre-existence, we already know the mysterys of the universe, but the veil of forgetting keeps us from accessing them.
When we "grow in intelligence" it is a spiritual growth that enhances our knowledge of God and strengthens our desire to submit totally to His will.
We only "progress" in the Eternities in the sense that we bring added glory to God and ourselves by creating and saving more children who in turn give more glory to us and God. It's a "One Eternal round" sort of thing.

I know a lot of members think in terms of learning higher mathematics when we are Celestialized but the reality is we already learned all that stuff in the pre-existence. What else did we do for all those eons of time, eh?

Personally I'm just interested in pleasing God while here and just being amazed at whatever awaits on the other side.

[Give It Time]

A number of years ago on an LDS discussion board I wanted to know how in the course of Eternal Progression we would not reach a point where the yearnings which lead us to desire the idea of a heavenly polygamy harem would be abandoned. I wanted to know the point where our Celestial IQ might bring us beyond the earthly appetites for the flesh. I learned that my fellow Mormons believed that beyond the ability to solve the most advanced celestial mechanics equations and maybe know the correct answers on the history of everything test and have our perceptions extend beyond the confines of time and space, we would retain our same personality and sexual desires. I am wondering if they are selling the whole notion of becoming advanced beyond our wildest dreams a bit short.

What are your thoughts on this subject?

I don't know, but this is the first time I've entertained ideas that are almost the reverse of what I've been taught. Somehow, women are supposed to undergo some sort of celestial stepford-ization procedure to think polygamy is awesome! If women can undergo this procedure, why isn't there a reverse for the men where they undergo some procedure and find polygamy repugnant?

[Corsair]

A number of years ago on an LDS discussion board I wanted to know how in the course of Eternal Progression we would not reach a point where the yearnings which lead us to desire the idea of a heavenly polygamy harem would be abandoned. I wanted to know the point where our Celestial IQ might bring us beyond the earthly appetites for the flesh. I learned that my fellow Mormons believed that beyond the ability to solve the most advanced celestial mechanics equations and maybe know the correct answers on the history of everything test and have our perceptions extend beyond the confines of time and space, we would retain our same personality and sexual desires. I am wondering if they are selling the whole notion of becoming advanced beyond our wildest dreams a bit short.

No one in the LDS world has any idea of what they are talking about with plural marriage and eternal progression. The only reason that this is a concern stems from processing normal human sexuality that is magnified through the continuing problems from the doctrine, policy, and overall bad idea of plural marriage. Notice how the rest of the Christian world has not a care in the world over this problem. They simply (and wisely) assume that God will figure it out and instead hold to a common standard of monogamous fidelity. Widows and widowers are graciously allowed to re-marry unburdened by rules of temple sealing.

The primary message from apologetic groups is that we simply don't know what Joseph was thinking about plural marriage. As a skeptical apostate I think I do know what Joseph was thinking but my opinion is not welcome in faithful discussions. I like the idea of eternal progression, but trying to shoehorn polygamy into it just makes the whole affair silly.

[Hagoth]

I don't know, but this is the first time I've entertained ideas that are almost the reverse of what I've been taught. Somehow, women are supposed to undergo some sort of celestial stepford-ization procedure to think polygamy is awesome! If women can undergo this procedure, why isn't there a reverse for the men where they undergo some procedure and find polygamy repugnant?

I think the Mormon idea of eternal progression for women is modeled on the insect world. The role of a termite queen is to sit in one spot and pump out offspring by the millions until she dies. From what I hear in church about the eternal role of women, and when I hear them referred to as queens in the temple, I can't help but make that comparison. The only difference is my addition of the words "until she dies." In the afterlife there is no sweet mercy of death.

[Hagoth]

I am wondering if they are selling the whole notion of becoming advanced beyond our wildest dreams a bit short.

The only role model we have to draw conclusions from is the God of the Bible and Book of Mormon, and from what I see there is no indication of eternal life making someone more emotionally or intellectually developed, only a promise of becoming more physically powerful

I would think someone who has lived for billions of years and seen countless generations of his children live and die would eventually gain some kind of perspective and security about his place in the universe so he wouldn't need to spend so much time punishing and smiting people for behaving exactly as he knew they would. I would think that he would be secure enough to not require vast choirs surrounding his throne, singing praises to his greatness night and day for eternity, and that he would be able to resist civilization-destroying tantrums because someone didn't believe one particular crazy-guy-screaming-on-the-wall any more than the other crazy screaming guys.

Basically, that after a few million years taking all of your insecurities on your children, you would eventually move on to do the kinds of things Moksha is talking about, rather than spending the eternities fretting about sex and stewing over insignificant squabbles and ego bruisings.

Yet another important lesson learned from Star Trek

[blazerb]

I would think someone who has lived for billions of years and seen countless generations of his children live and die would eventually gain some kind of perspective and security about his place in the universe so he wouldn't need to spend so much time punishing and smiting people for behaving exactly as he knew they would. I would think that he would be secure enough to not require vast choirs surrounding his throne, singing praises to his greatness night and day for eternity, and that he would be able to resist civilization-destroying tantrums because someone didn't believe one particular crazy-guy-screaming-on-the-wall any more than the other crazy screaming guys.

Basically, that after a few million years taking all of your insecurities on your children, you would eventually move on to do the kinds of things Moksha is talking about, rather than spending the eternities fretting about sex and stewing over insignificant squabbles and ego bruisings.

Yet another important lesson learned from Star Trek

Back in my TBM days, I would have told you that God does not necessarily want to punish, smite, or be adored ostentatiously. He only requires that because it's for our own good. He wiped out civilizations for the good of the children and all that. I'm so horrified by those thoughts now. What good is the ability to reason morally if we have to submit to seemingly arbitrary whims of an omnipotent being? How can we possibly progress if the only lesson we need to learn is to do what we are told?

Trelane and Q were two of my least favorite Star Trek characters. God has to be better than that, if she or he exists.

[Rob4Hope]

I would think someone who has lived for billions of years and seen countless generations of his children live and die would eventually gain some kind of perspective and security about his place in the universe so he wouldn't need to spend so much time punishing and smiting people for behaving exactly as he knew they would. I would think that he would be secure enough to not require vast choirs surrounding his throne, singing praises to his greatness night and day for eternity, and that he would be able to resist civilization-destroying tantrums because someone didn't believe one particular crazy-guy-screaming-on-the-wall any more than the other crazy screaming guys.

Basically, that after a few million years taking all of your insecurities on your children, you would eventually move on to do the kinds of things Moksha is talking about, rather than spending the eternities fretting about sex and stewing over insignificant squabbles and ego bruisings.

Yet another important lesson learned from Star Trek

Back in my TBM days, I would have told you that God does not necessarily want to punish, smite, or be adored ostentatiously. He only requires that because it's for our own good. He wiped out civilizations for the good of the children and all that. I'm so horrified by those thoughts now. What good is the ability to reason morally if we have to submit to seemingly arbitrary whims of an omnipotent being? How can we possibly progress if the only lesson we need to learn is to do what we are told?

Trelane and Q were two of my least favorite Star Trek characters. God has to be better than that, if she or he exists.

The idea that God has to deal with people without looking at moral implications was certainly espoused by BY in the day. Blood Atonement, administered by BY according to his idea of who and who should not die, and then blaming it on the Indians, is repugnant. Its murder--but then again, BY had his Calling and Election made sure, and according to section 132, the definition of murder is shedding "innocent blood". According to Paul in the NT, everyone has sinned, and hence, no one is innocent with the exception of little children...but then again, if they are from Arkansas and in a wagon train, then they are NOT innocent.

From a TBM perspective, its amazing the lengths God would take to further his purposes, including killing who he wanted through his instrument BY.

[Give It Time]

I don't know, but this is the first time I've entertained ideas that are almost the reverse of what I've been taught. Somehow, women are supposed to undergo some sort of celestial stepford-ization procedure to think polygamy is awesome! If women can undergo this procedure, why isn't there a reverse for the men where they undergo some procedure and find polygamy repugnant?

I think the Mormon idea of eternal progression for women is modeled on the insect world. The role of a termite queen is to sit in one spot and pump out offspring by the millions until she dies. From what I hear in church about the eternal role of women, and when I hear them referred to as queens in the temple, I can't help but make that comparison. The only difference is my addition of the words "until she dies." In the afterlife there is no sweet mercy of death.

If you could be a fly on the wall when a group of TBM women was talking, you'd hear pretty much exactly this, even right down to the sweet mercy of death.

[ulmite]

I think a God who is neither omnipotent nor omniscient solves this problem quite neatly. You have to bump God down from a pedestal of perfectness and say that He is just a very good guy progressing along. Then we get to be very good people progressing along just like Him in the celestial kingdom or wherever.
A popular idea (I think maybe from Church pamphlets on education?) is that we keep whatever knowledge we have learned here on Earth, so go to school. My view is that people get to continue to pursue "leisure activities", forever, such as playing/composing music, reading/writing books, social events, sports, academics, etc. Even if you have a job in heaven, two weeks of vacation a year times eternity gives you lots of time!