More Evidence Against BOM

[dandycustard]

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170328 ... e-americas

"The team concludes that the ancestors of the first Americans came to Beringia at some point between 23,000 years and 13,000 years ago."

Somehow in the debate about genetics, we keep forgetting to bring up that it is literally impossible for a group to have arrived around 600 BC and have spawned such genetic distinction from their source population so quickly. These changes take 10,000 - 20,000 years.

And as should always be noted, according to the doctrines of Mormonism, there is no human history before 4000 BC.

[Corsair]

And as should always be noted, according to the doctrines of Mormonism, there is no human history before 4000 BC.

This is especially true if your name is Bruce McConkie. A lot of anthropology, geology, and history professors at BYU would certainly have a lot to say about life before 4000 BC, but many of them don't want to irritate the Honor Code office nor their department heads.

[Red Ryder]

There's an excellent documentary on Netflix/YouTube about this called The Great Human Odyssey. It's worth the 2 hours.

[Palerider]

This is no big deal....

Everyone knows that the church has never inferred that the Nephite/Lamanites were the only ones who came to this continent. In fact their genetic markers were so small and insignificant among the millions who already lived here that current leadership would be surprised if any still existed at all.

Brigham Young 1855 General Conference talk:

"Before the Book of Mormon was printed, and immediately after Joseph Smith obtained the plates, and the revelations he received concerning this record being the record of the Nephites, and of the Lamanites, who are the fathers of the present aborigines of our country, and in which the Lord told him that He was about to set to His hand the second time to gather Israel, the war commenced against him; this was long before the book was printed."

ETA.

Andrew Jensen General Conference talk 1921:

"Those of us, however, who have accepted the Book of Mormon as an inspired record will not concede for a moment that the words of the Lord will fail; hence, we naturally extend our vision and researches to other tribes of Indians, besides these once powerful tribes within the boundaries of the United States. We, therefore cast a glance southward into old Mexico and through the great countries beyond -- down through Central America and South America, where there are millions and millions of Lamanites, direct descendants of Father Lehi."

[Hagoth]

Jeffrey Holland, 1975, describing how the continents were separated at the time of Noah, specifically for the purpose of keeping the Americas uninhabited: “Such a special place needed now to be kept apart from other regions, free from the indiscriminate traveler as well as the soldier of fortune. To guarantee such sanctity the very surface of the earth was rent. In response to God’s decree, the great continents separated and the ocean rushed in to surround them. The promised place was set apart. Without habitation it waited for the fulfillment of God’s special purposes.”

[Palerider]

Jeffrey Holland, 1975, describing how the continents were separated at the time of Noah, specifically for the purpose of keeping the Americas uninhabited: “Such a special place needed now to be kept apart from other regions, free from the indiscriminate traveler as well as the soldier of fortune. To guarantee such sanctity the very surface of the earth was rent. In response to God’s decree, the great continents separated and the ocean rushed in to surround them. The promised place was set apart. Without habitation it waited for the fulfillment of God’s special purposes.”

Oh, that's too good Hagoth........I'll be saving this one for my scrap book on defeating idiotic apologists.

[Emower]

Jeffrey Holland, 1975, describing how the continents were separated at the time of Noah, specifically for the purpose of keeping the Americas uninhabited: “Such a special place needed now to be kept apart from other regions, free from the indiscriminate traveler as well as the soldier of fortune. To guarantee such sanctity the very surface of the earth was rent. In response to God’s decree, the great continents separated and the ocean rushed in to surround them. The promised place was set apart. Without habitation it waited for the fulfillment of God’s special purposes.”

Oh, that's too good Hagoth........I'll be saving this one for my scrap book on defeating idiotic apologists.

He was not an apostle at the time so it doesn't count.

[Palerider]

He was not an apostle at the time so it doesn't count.

And yet he got that teaching from somewhere didn't he.........

[Spicy McHaggis]

I just read this. Very interesting. Human habitation reached Chile many thousands of years earlier than expected.
Still no wooden submarines carrying humans, livestock and beehives for 344 days though.

[deacon blues]

I suppose Ugo Perego could explain this..... Ugo?

I think understanding that Beringia was not a narrow land bridge, but a large area, twice the size of Texas, that was exposed by the receding ocean, is helpful for me in understanding this. It's interesting that human cut marks were found on a 24,000 year old horse jaw.

[RubinHighlander]

Here's a 12,000 year old camp site right here behind the Zion Curtain:

http://westerndigs.org/12000-year-old-c ... gist-says/

And yet, we still have not found the stash of millions of swords, breastplates, etc. around 600BC...

So glad I don't have to play those mental gymnastics anymore!

[Emower]

He was not an apostle at the time so it doesn't count.

And yet he got that teaching from somewhere didn't he.........

The moon people! They probably watched it happen then told him about it!

[moksha]

Jeffrey Holland, 1975, describing how the continents were separated at the time of Noah, specifically for the purpose of keeping the Americas uninhabited: “Such a special place needed now to be kept apart from other regions, free from the indiscriminate traveler as well as the soldier of fortune. To guarantee such sanctity the very surface of the earth was rent. In response to God’s decree, the great continents separated and the ocean rushed in to surround them. The promised place was set apart. Without habitation it waited for the fulfillment of God’s special purposes.”

Does anyone know how the geologists at BYU cope with this terribly misinformed speculation by Elder Holland? I suppose Elder Holland could extend this idea to explain what happened to the gold plates: "Hey like I said man, it was plate tectonics. The gold plates just slipped away".

[Rob4Hope]

Does anyone know how the geologists at BYU cope with this terribly misinformed speculation by Elder Holland?

ditto. I am VERY interested in this. If anyone knows, I'm all ears.....

[Rob4Hope]

There is reference in the BBC link above to "horse".

The dates is 24,000 years ago. I bet the apologists jump all over that,...saying the dating is wrong, and there WERE horses in the Americas only some 2000 years ago...

[Palerider]

Does anyone know how the geologists at BYU cope with this terribly misinformed speculation by Elder Holland?

ditto. I am VERY interested in this. If anyone knows, I'm all ears.....

I think it's called "compartmentalization".

Yep, just keep carrying these two divergent propositions in two separate bags and as long as neither one "knows" what's in the other your brain will do fine and you can keep collecting a paycheck.

[Korihor]

Jeffrey Holland, 1975, describing how the continents were separated at the time of Noah, specifically for the purpose of keeping the Americas uninhabited: “Such a special place needed now to be kept apart from other regions, free from the indiscriminate traveler as well as the soldier of fortune. To guarantee such sanctity the very surface of the earth was rent. In response to God’s decree, the great continents separated and the ocean rushed in to surround them. The promised place was set apart. Without habitation it waited for the fulfillment of God’s special purposes.”

Oh, that's too good Hagoth........I'll be saving this one for my scrap book on defeating idiotic apologists.

He was not an apostle at the time so it doesn't count.

Soooo much meat on this bone
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/06/a-pr ... d?lang=eng

[Hagoth]

Does anyone know how the geologists at BYU cope with this terribly misinformed speculation by Elder Holland? I suppose Elder Holland could extend this idea to explain what happened to the gold plates: "Hey like I said man, it was plate tectonics. The gold plates just slipped away".

I like John Larsen's Frankenstein BYU Professor hypothesis. He says that none of the BYU professors believe the wacky Mormon doctrine that affects only their field of expertise, so BYU geologists don't believe in young earth, global flood, late division of continents, etc. In the same way, BYU biologists do believe in evolution and don't believe in a literal Adam and Eve 6000 years ago. Linguists don't believe in the Tower of Babel, Middle Eastern historians don't literally believe a lot of Bible stories, and so on and so on. If you took the part of each of those professors that is specific to their field of expertise and sewed them together into one person, he or she would be a complete non-believer in everything Mormon.

[Grace2Daisy]

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170328 ... e-americas

"The team concludes that the ancestors of the first Americans came to Beringia at some point between 23,000 years and 13,000 years ago."

Somehow in the debate about genetics, we keep forgetting to bring up that it is literally impossible for a group to have arrived around 600 BC and have spawned such genetic distinction from their source population so quickly. These changes take 10,000 - 20,000 years.

And as should always be noted, according to the doctrines of Mormonism, there is no human history before 4000 BC.

For those who may remember before I was "resurrected" and found this new site, I mentioned my first shelf crack was DNA. I was teaching seminary at the time and I had a student ask me the DNA question. I did not have an answer, so I told her I would get back to her. I wrote two different religion professors at BYU and another one at BYUI asking them the same question. I received responses from all three and their answers were very close to the same, "The scientific evidence is absolutely not conclusive, and one cannot use DNA to prove nor deny evidence of the Book of Mormon." I passed those statements on the to young woman, although I was hesitant. The church is giving its best shot to make the DNA question a non-event, but it is not.

That response prompted me to begin my own studies and researching the DNA question. I began to realize the reason they responded as they did, and eventually that led me to several books and to the CES Letter and to Mormon Stories. I've since heard the young woman has resigned from the church, although I've not confirmed that statement as we have moved away from that state.