Church or Marriage

[Rebel]

Hello to all: I wanted to get some feedback on a very serious subject. I have felt the need to leave the Church for the past two years however my wife is not onboard !!!! She is a TBM through and through. She claims if I leave the church she will leave me because then we would not have the same values !!!! We have three adult children been in the church for 36 years and I am the one who does not enjoy it anymore , I have really tried the past two years but to no avail. Should I just suck it up because the marriage should be more important or leave and take a chance to see if she is bluffing or not and then be without a spouse ???? I have told her the church advises her to go with me but she doesn't buy it !! She is choosing the church over me but if I go am I doing the same thing ?????? I am very interested in the CofChrist church have studied it on line etc etc . Need feedback ASAP !!!!
Thanks...

[vankimber]

One thing you didn't actually mention--do you love her?

[Rebel]

Yes !!!!!

[vankimber]

Perhaps you could work out some sort of compromise rather than it being a complete either/or situation. I do know it's tough. My DH isn't nearly that hung ho, but I know he wishes I would attend church with him. I just can't make myself do it, though. I have PTSD, and the last time I did attend services, I had a panic attack. That was almost a year ago. But there are other things I do to keep us on the same page as much as possible-- keep the Word of Wisdom, not shop on Sunday, etc. As far as possible, I'm determined not to let this come between us. I don't know how open to discussion your wife is, but I can't imagine that anything positive will happen without it. Good luck!

[Rebel]

Thanks, but she is not open to discussion it's either all or nothing , no compromise . My compromise was that I go to cofchrist and keep all the same stuff in place I.e. no shopping on sunday , word of wisdom etc etc .

[Red Ryder]

Honestly Rebel, this can only be answered by what's deep in your heart and mind.

Life is too short to be miserable. Compromise in a mixed faith marriage is a lot of work and emotional energy. It's more than an agreement to do this or not do that. It's managing continuous failed expectations set up by the church. I've been doing this for way too long. 12 years now and it's exhausting. Deep inside I've often wondered why I stay and try to make it work. At first I was afraid we would get divorced. Lately I'm afraid we won't get divorced.

Life isn't always greener over on the other side of the fence. It's only greener over the septic tank.

Have an honest conversation and see what happens. In the end, maybe she's serious about divorce and maybe she's not. In order to progress and move forward you have to both know your limits. Marriage isn't forever and that's ok.

[vankimber]

Gees, I hate this! A church that's supposed to be so dedicated to families keeps tearing them apart. If they really cared about it they could easily address it in conference. I was TBM back when Pres. Hinkley would make appearances on Larry King Live. Larry King had married a member of the church without being a member himself, but I never saw Pres. Hinkley treat him with anything but kindness and respect. I took that to mean that that's how we should treat those in part-member families, or even in part-believing families. How silly of me.

No church should ever cause this much pain and discord for anyone, and especially not for those who love each other.

[Not Buying It]

Gees, I hate this! A church that's supposed to be so dedicated to families keeps tearing them apart. If they really cared about it they could easily address it in conference. I was TBM back when Pres. Hinkley would make appearances on Larry King Live. Larry King had married a member of the church without being a member himself, but I never saw Pres. Hinkley treat him with anything but kindness and respect. I took that to mean that that's how we should treat those in part-member families, or even in part-believing families. How silly of me.

No church should ever cause this much pain and discord for anyone, and especially not for those who love each other.

This really upsets me. The Brethren know there is a tremendous amount of pain in the Church where one spouse wants to leave and another wants to stay. They could very easily say "Don't let religious disagreements ruin your marriage! It is OK if your spouse chooses a different religious path. Families are important, be understanding and accommodating if your spouse decides they no longer believe in the Church. Your family is the most important thing". The would be the right thing to do.

But that's not what they do. They completely ignore the pain in mixed belief marriages, and keep tossing out idiotic messages like "stay in the boat" and "give Joseph a break". They don't want to admit what is going on in many marriages, and they sure as hell don't care enough about the members to worry about doing anything to ease that pain. Control is far more important to them than saving the marriages of members, and if they make it sound like it is OK for a spouse to leave the Church, they lose a little control.

I find it very upsetting. They couldn't care less about the pain, all they care about is maintaining control. That is one of several reasons that I have no respect for them.

[Rob4Hope]

Mixed faith marriages are a struggle. The church also sacrifices family members who are not members when marriages are forged in the temple--ONLY those who are "worthy" and have a signed recommend can enter. You have parents not being able to see their children married, and you even have church leaders off and on telling those getting married in the temple to NOT HOLD ADDITIONAL VOW CEREMONIES for those who couldn't attend the marriage in the first place.

For a long time I have felt one of the biggest lies the church tells over and over is that they are pro-family. They are NOT pro-family; they are PRO SELF....at the exclusion of everyone and everything else.

Good luck out there my friend. I'm sorry you have to endure this. You love your spouse, but it appears your spouse loves the church more than you. Do you love your spouse more than you dislike the TSCC yourself?...just an honest question because it appears you are in a pinch.

[Mormorrisey]

This really upsets me. The Brethren know there is a tremendous amount of pain in the Church where one spouse wants to leave and another wants to stay. They could very easily say "Don't let religious disagreements ruin your marriage! It is OK if your spouse chooses a different religious path. Families are important, be understanding and accommodating if your spouse decides they no longer believe in the Church. Your family is the most important thing". The would be the right thing to do.

This is the real tragedy. It would be so easy just to quote Paul in Corinthians about staying with a non-believing spouse, and at least it would give spouses some guidance; but they are silent for all the reasons you mention here. And it's all to maintain loyalty to the church at all costs. That's one thing I feel bad for Sister M; she is going this almost entirely alone, with no guidance, counsel or advice on how to navigate a marriage that one spouse is not too enamoured of the church. As I think about it, I'm going to tell her right now how well she's doing. She's not perfect, but she has nothing to go on from the leadership of the church how to deal with me. And she's really trying, as am I. We're in a good spot this week, but who knows what the next will bring? Conference is going to be a real pain in the keister and not help my marriage, I can already feel it. But putting the blame where it belongs, on a church that's silent on this problem, has been very cathartic for me personally.

The other thing I have that Sister M doesn't, is a kick-a@$ online ward I can identify with and spell out my feelings. All she gets is people feeling sorry for her and passive-aggressive compassion. I'm waiting for her to have enough of that, but I'm sure after a few years of getting shunned for her apostate spouse she'll either have enough of me, or them. Hopefully it's the latter.

[StarbucksMom]

Rebel,
I am 99.9999% sure I recognize you from the old board, but your username was different. Your love of exclamation points and parts of your story, like grown children and a manipulative wife, are very familiar. Please ignore this and forgive me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, I am so sorry you are going through this. I wrote on here a few days ago about how I feel the Q15 are corrupt. I pointed out that this in part because they refuse to get up in general conference, address disaffected spouses, and say that God wants us to put our marriages first. Why won't they do that? Because if it's ok for a spouse to question the church because it was founded by a child pedophiling-adultering-wife stealing-false translating-bank frauding pathetic individual-who LDS inc still worships---than it's ok for a spouse to not pay tithing. And LDS inc's primary, number one concern is money. I really believe that. So, like others have pointed out, they keep giving talks about not leaving the fold.

If I remember you correctly, your wife was trying to control the entire checkbook/finances, (even though she doesn't work--which is fine, but marriage and finances are a partnership) got upset when you left a toxic work environment for a better one, and I believe wouldn't let you get a smart phone? Maybe I am totally out there, if so I am sorry! But if by chance I am correct, than it may be time to ask some serious questions about how you want to live out the rest of your life. You don't have to stay in a marriage like that, and though it's hard to believe, there may be a much happier life waiting for you if you decide to start a new chapter in your life.

I say call her bluff--say you can't stay in the church due to your moral convictions, that you don't believe in the Mormon God for xxxx reasons, or you have serious issues with church policy, Joseph Smith, or whatever it is. And that you have to follow your conscience. Emphasize that you love her, and that you are not leaving to start spending weekends in Vegas gambling and doing drugs. Then let the chips fall where they may. I am actually pretty sure that if she sees you standing up for yourself and refusing to allow her to mistreat/manipulate/threaten you, she will actually begin to respect you more.

[redjay]

The question is would you be happier divorced away from the church? If not, then stay as you are. Not ideal, but life is never ideal.

You could 'push it' and just stop going to church and see if she pressed the nuclear button.

anyway I am just a randomer on the internet.

[Corsair]

If there were a simple answer to this problem then it would have been solved long ago. So all that we can offer is sympathy and some suggestions that will have to be evaluated in your own life against a possibly intractable problem.

Frankly, it sounds like the emotional intimacy of your own marriage is the relationship that needs to be improved more than your involvement with the church. I'm no marriage counselor, but I would look towards improving that relationship in pursuit of compromising on church involvement. At some point you need to outline exactly what you have versus what you want, and figure out if the cost is worth the dissolution of your marriage. I have most of the restrictions that you labor under with the glaring exception that I control all the money and have stopped paying tithing. Still, after I attend a full three hour church, I thoroughly enjoy Sundays (a.k.a "Movie and Video Game Day"). I don't scandalize her with Word of Wisdom infractions. She has ironically come to see me as the guy to evaluate any rated R movies for her. There are many more compromises involved and we continue to love each other.

It's also worth bringing up the immense nuclear option advantage that divorce would produce in your own marriage. You make all the money and your children are adults. If you get divorced she will be instantly be a second class citizen financially and socially. You get to downsize into a bachelor pad and she gets the new experience of living alone with financial catastrophe looming over her.

Suddenly she will simply be the older divorced woman in the ward assuming she gets to stay in the ward. Sell your house as part of the divorce settlement and see if she can still afford a residence in the same ward. I doubt she will enjoy being the newest special project of the HP group who wants a priesthood blessing at odd hours. Dating for older women is no easy task either since polygamy was rescinded.

I'm not telling you these things to plan for her destruction. I'm telling you that leaving divorce on the table is not to be feared by you and is the rock bottom reality that she needs to comprehend if she cannot compromise. It's a threat that is best enumerated coldly, preferably as she figures it out herself. She is living a dream life and few compromises on both your parts is preferable to the nuclear option since she has a lot more to fear than you do.

[MerrieMiss]

As I have not yet had the conversation with my husband regarding disbelief, I don’t know that I have anything valuable to add regarding your situation, although I will offer my sympathy and second what Corsair says about emotional intimacy.

I realized a while back that what my marriage lacked wasn’t a mutual belief in the church, but intimacy. Both of us used the church as a replacement for intimacy and I’ve been trying to bridge that gap. It’s difficult because we have young children and they can consume all extra time very easily. However, I remember when my parents became empty nesters and it was a big strain on their marriage – not having the kids to tie them together was huge, as well as having all that time to spend together. Each phase of life has its own challenges. Again, I'm sorry you're going through this. I hope you can figure it out.

[Give It Time]

I would suggest letting her know you are taking this ultimatum seriously. You need some time to carefully weigh the two choices. You can determine the amount of time. I suggest you keep it short, like a week. Go somewhere on your bucket list where she doesn't want to go. This is no time to be cruel or unfair. Make the same offer to her. There has to be somewhere she loves deeply, wants​ to go and you're glad to skip it.

Once you're there, do something you want to do. Eat a meal or two you want to eat. Look at some sunsets, count some stars. Sleep late. Ask yourself some difficult questions. Now it's time for making some lists. Basically, your choices are marriage or divorce (with religious freedom being one of the benefits of divorce). Prayerfully list all the pros and cons for both possibilities you can think of. Take a few days to do this. Only you can answer these questions. It really helps to get it down in black and white in quantifiable terms what is positive about the situation and what isn't.

I did this, myself, with my marriage. I didn't think there was a whole lot salvageable in it. I was surprised when I did this that my list was about 33 % pro and 66% con. I thought the "pro" of my marriage would be much lower and the "con" much higher. I actually contemplated making another attempt at saving my marriage, even though it was against my better judgement. While I was weighing all of this, one question popped into my mind that I knew was a deal breaker if I answered "no" and I did. Clarity. Then, I prayed about it for confirmation.

You may not have a deal breaking question popped into your mind. You may just look at your lists and seeing it in such starkly concrete terms may be enough answer for you. It's different for everyone. This may seem overly logical and a little old school, but I've found love doesn't conquer all. There is much more to it than that. Doing a list such as this helps to create a picture of just what is there besides the love the that needs to be taken into account. Also, is there anything in the marriage besides love, children and church? Are there things you like to do together? If there aren't, there won't be a whole lot for building the relationship within the confines of this ultimatum.

That's my suggestion.

Best wishes for the best outcome, all around, for all of you.

A few other fallout possibilities for you. If you do this, it's entirely possible your wife will pull some shenanigans. Possibilities include:

Draining your accounts
Making a large purchase/maxing out the credit cards
Changing the locks

I suggest you prepare for those.

Also, should you stay married, I wouldn't expect her to appreciate the sacrifice you're making. She'll probably feel entitled and will expect you to be grateful for keeping you in the fold. On the other hand, if you choose anything less than full activity and full engagement with the church (divorce), she is very likely to go to war. This means smear campaign, allies, territory, spoils. Again, prepare.

[w2mz]

Life is too short to be miserable. Compromise in a mixed faith marriage is a lot of work and emotional energy. It's more than an agreement to do this or not do that. It's managing continuous failed expectations set up by the church. I've been doing this for way too long. 12 years now and it's exhausting. Deep inside I've often wondered why I stay and try to make it work. At first I was afraid we would get divorced. Lately I'm afraid we won't get divorced.

RR, change the 12 to a 10 and that's exactly where I'm at. Some days it seems untenable, other days less so.

I think I spend too much time waiting for THE event that will be the catalyst to shatter the glass house. So far, it's been ground hog's day over and over. It IS exhausting.

I am too chicken crap to grow a pair and face it because I don't want to lose my marriage, or do I and I'm just too chicken crap to face that fact?

[Give It Time]

Life is too short to be miserable. Compromise in a mixed faith marriage is a lot of work and emotional energy. It's more than an agreement to do this or not do that. It's managing continuous failed expectations set up by the church. I've been doing this for way too long. 12 years now and it's exhausting. Deep inside I've often wondered why I stay and try to make it work. At first I was afraid we would get divorced. Lately I'm afraid we won't get divorced.

RR, change the 12 to a 10 and that's exactly where I'm at. Some days it seems untenable, other days less so.

I think I spend too much time waiting for THE event that will be the catalyst to shatter the glass house. So far, it's been ground hog's day over and over. It IS exhausting.

I am too chicken crap to grow a pair and face it because I don't want to lose my marriage, or do I and I'm just too chicken crap to face that fact?

Ground Hog's Day is an excellent analogy for situations like this.

[MalcolmVillager]

There is a ton of great advice on this post. I don't have much to add. I agree with RedJay below. Sometimes we envision a perfect world where our obvious problems are fixed, but we don't know what other problems will appear in their place.

I suppose it depends on your love and commitment to each other and who you want to face future problems with. Counseling with a professional can help you both sort that out!

The question is would you be happier divorced away from the church? If not, then stay as you are. Not ideal, but life is never ideal.

[TheRunningmom]

This really upsets me. The Brethren know there is a tremendous amount of pain in the Church where one spouse wants to leave and another wants to stay. They could very easily say "Don't let religious disagreements ruin your marriage! It is OK if your spouse chooses a different religious path. Families are important, be understanding and accommodating if your spouse decides they no longer believe in the Church. Your family is the most important thing". The would be the right thing to do.

But that's not what they do. They completely ignore the pain in mixed belief marriages, and keep tossing out idiotic messages like "stay in the boat" and "give Joseph a break". They don't want to admit what is going on in many marriages, and they sure as hell don't care enough about the members to worry about doing anything to ease that pain. Control is far more important to them than saving the marriages of members, and if they make it sound like it is OK for a spouse to leave the Church, they lose a little control.

I find it very upsetting. They couldn't care less about the pain, all they care about is maintaining control. That is one of several reasons that I have no respect for them.

I could find a couple of mostly supportive talks/articles about this:

1988 - Partners in Everything but the Church
2012 - When He Stopped Believing

There were other times where it was discussed, of course, but not very often. The most recent one I could find was a talk by Oaks from 2014 or 2015, where he talked about being able to discuss things openly in our own homes and the first choice is to marry an LDS member to avoid these conflicts. He did say to be patient but it was quite obvious it was an inferior situation in his eyes.

[Not Buying It]

[quote="Not Buying It" post_id=12015 time=<a href="tel:1490963069">1490963069</a> user_id=142]


This really upsets me. The Brethren know there is a tremendous amount of pain in the Church where one spouse wants to leave and another wants to stay. They could very easily say "Don't let religious disagreements ruin your marriage! It is OK if your spouse chooses a different religious path. Families are important, be understanding and accommodating if your spouse decides they no longer believe in the Church. Your family is the most important thing". The would be the right thing to do.

But that's not what they do. They completely ignore the pain in mixed belief marriages, and keep tossing out idiotic messages like "stay in the boat" and "give Joseph a break". They don't want to admit what is going on in many marriages, and they sure as hell don't care enough about the members to worry about doing anything to ease that pain. Control is far more important to them than saving the marriages of members, and if they make it sound like it is OK for a spouse to leave the Church, they lose a little control.

I find it very upsetting. They couldn't care less about the pain, all they care about is maintaining control. That is one of several reasons that I have no respect for them.

I could find a couple of mostly supportive talks/articles about this:

1988 - Partners in Everything but the Church
2012 - When He Stopped Believing

There were other times where it was discussed, of course, but not very often. The most recent one I could find was a talk by Oaks from 2014 or 2015, where he talked about being able to discuss things openly in our own homes and the first choice is to marry an LDS member to avoid these conflicts. He did say to be patient but it was quite obvious it was an inferior situation in his eyes.
[/quote]

Yeah, the paucity of resources for such a large problem is very troubling. Those two links were to Ensign articles by regular Joe Members, one was "name withheld", they weren't guidance from the Brethren. Elder's Oaks paltry comments are heartbreaking in terms of the grossly inadequate leadership response to a tremendous amount of pain in member's families. They don't give a crap about our pain, and I am furious about it.