John Hamer - Not a Restorationist? Confused...

[JustCurious]

I have just started listening to a podcast in which John Hamer states "I am not a restorationist". For him to say that, I either have a different definition of "restorationist" than John Hamer has, or else I am misunderstanding something significant about the CoC.

Is not the CoC a restorationist church? I am confused.

And, I don't think I am the only one that is confused by that. John Dehlin also referred to John Hamer as a "restorationist" in the podcast.

[Palerider]

I was kind'a of the opinion that CoC had relinquished any view that the BoM is actually scripture. I think it's "o.k." if a member wants to believe in the BoM as having some inspired writing in it but it isn't to be viewed as canon.

Therefore, if the BoM isn't true, then one can no longer assume that Joseph Smith was anything more than a charismatic and thereby be forced to admit that there was no restoration of the original Gospel of Christ through his efforts.

The original "Restorationist" movement that was in full swing during the time of Joseph Smith's youth was really and effort to organize a church along the same pattern (or close to it) as that described in the New Testament. Joseph Smith hijacked this idea and along with Sydney Rigdon, Oliver Cowdery, et al, used it as a springboard to launch their own brand of Christianity.

Hamer may be of the view that the original church will not be "restored" either figuratively (as a restorationist) or literally (as in the LDS concept of the word). I'm not that familiar with his personal theology to say one way or another.

[John Hamer]

"Restorationist" can have a number of meanings. In a technical RLDS sense, "Restorationist" refers to a reactionary conservative RLDS member who left Community of Christ over changing doctrines like ending priesthood discrimination on the basis of gender.

So I'm a member of a church that is part of the Restoration and is a Restoration tradition church, but the technical term "Restorationist" is problematic.

It's like asking a member of the LDS Church, who is also a fundamentalist in a Christian sense (i.e., literalistic Bible believer, etc.) are you a "fundamentalist Mormon"? Well, they're a fundamentalist, and they're a Mormon, but "fundamentalist Mormon" in a technical sense means someone who practices polygamy, which would not describe this person.

[Red Ryder]

"Restorationist" can have a number of meanings. In a technical RLDS sense, "Restorationist" refers to a reactionary conservative RLDS member who left Community of Christ over changing doctrines like ending priesthood discrimination on the basis of gender.

So I'm a member of a church that is part of the Restoration and is a Restoration tradition church, but the technical term "Restorationist" is problematic.

It's like asking a member of the LDS Church, who is also a fundamentalist in a Christian sense (i.e., literalistic Bible believer, etc.) are you a "fundamentalist Mormon"? Well, they're a fundamentalist, and they're a Mormon, but "fundamentalist Mormon" in a technical sense means someone who practices polygamy, which would not describe this person.

Makes sense to me.

[Palerider]

So I'm a member of a church that is part of the Restoration and is a Restoration tradition church, but the technical term "Restorationist" is problematic.

So regarding your church, is that a restoration in the tradition of the original "resorationist" movement or in the later literal tradition of Joseph Smith?

[John Hamer]

So regarding your church, is that a restoration in the tradition of the original "resorationist" movement or in the later literal tradition of Joseph Smith?

The Joseph Smith Jr. tradition is called "the Restoration" or "the Latter Day Saint movement." Community of Christ is a core component of that movement. "Restorationist" is a particular term that doesn't necessarily apply to all members of "the Restoration." Specifically, a "Restorationist" is someone who believes Brigham Young started polygamy and God doesn't want women to have the priesthood. The "Restorationist" term is different from being a part of "the Restoration."

In other words, if you are a member of the LDS Church, your are part of the Restoration, but you are not a Restorationist.

[Palerider]

O.k. I get where you're coming from.

I thought you might be differentiating between the Joseph/Brigham "restoration" and all of it's offshoots as opposed to the original "Restorationist Movement" which was imported to America and preceded Joseph Smith's highjacking of that concept.

I'm speaking of the Stone/Campbell restorationist movement of which Alexander Campbell was the chief mover. The concept of the Great Apostacy and the loss of primitive Christianity was brought to America by this movement and was co-opted by Joseph Smith and others. So I thought you might be a "restorationist" in that sense.....that you might be a "Campbellite".

[John Hamer]

So, yes, exactly. It was a very confusing part of the podcast as neither John nor I defined what we meant by the term. He was trying to find a term other than "Mormon" to be inclusive of me and Mormons. But he happened to find a term that has a special meaning in Community of Christ.

But you're correct that the entire Joseph Smith Restoration tradition has some significant roots in the broader Restoration tradition that included the Stone/Campbell Restoration movement.

In that way, I'm a member of Community of Christ which is a Restoration heritage or Restoration tradition church. However, I do not believe (and I doubt most leaders of the church believe any more) that there was any such thing as a "Great Apostasy" in a literal sense. Rather, we presume from the historical record that the historical Jesus did not found a church. After Jesus's death, early followers in different communities evolved into different Jesus people movements, while others bridged the gap to the diaspora Hellenist Judean and Greek-speaking Roman communities to create Christ cults (Paul being the primary figure here). All of these produced very different early Christianities that produced the various texts that one day became the New Testament (and many more that were excluded). Ultimately the proto-Orthodox group won out and Christianity radically changed in the 4th century as it merged with the Roman Imperial state. Nevertheless, the idea that there was once a pristine apostolic church that fell into apostasy can't be maintained in a historical sense.

As a result, today I see "Restoration" not as something literal (as in the LDS Church's claim that "authority" needed to literally be restored) but rather as the need to continually restore or translate ideals of past generations into the language and circumstances we find ourselves today.

[Red Ryder]

Makes sense to me.

Any other future podcast plans with Dehlin?