Debating with Pious Bias - Methods or Madness?

[RubinHighlander]

Bare with me for a moment as I lay some foundational content in order to best get the feedback I seek for this situation. Bottom line up front: I'd like some ideas from the forum as to methods that might be used to carefully navigate a conversation with a TBM, one that is full-on drinking the koolaid. This might seem a hopeless task, but it's also an opportunity to possibly bounce some ideas off a real-world situation here and allow me to return and report.

Long time TBM friend is moving his family back from CO to UT. For the sake of this post I'll call him Chad. Although Chad and I have had only brief contact a few times over the 3 decades we are good friends. Another good friend of mine, Bill, who is a NOM, is also Chad's cousin and we all grew up together from Jr High on. Bill and I have lots of awesome conversations about escaping the church, life, etc. We go to concerts together, hike, drink and generally have excellent adventures. Bill still attends church once or twice a month with his TBM wife and all of Bill's family are still TBMs, save one brother. Chad recently learned of Bill's falling away, but has not hammered him about it. Chad related a story to Bill about a friend of his in CO that recently left the church. Chad was quite vocal about it, saying how much it was a mistake and how terrible the timing was because the guy's son was now mission aged and would not be going. As Bill related this story to me he said Chad came across to him as pious and very judgemental, typical behavior for many TMBs. When Chad has asked Bill about his beliefs, Bill does not disclose any particulars and keeps control of the conversation because he knows it will go nowhere.

So now my friend Chad sent me a text last night, saying he's moving back to UT. He will be just a few miles from my house. Chad does not know that I'm also out of the church, but I'm sure it's bound to come out as we get together for concerts, snowboarding, hikes, etc. I want to prove the friendship beyond the church and can probably leverage Chad's pride to do this. Hell, I might even let him think he's fixing me, just to get him to open up emotionally. That might seem dishonest, but I'm looking for anyway to get him to peek outside of the matrix, even for a second. My goal is not to get Chad to leave the church, but perhaps to get him to be a bit more considerate of other's views and situations and not be so high on the rameumptom.

I bit more on Chad. He grew up in a nearly perfect TBM lifestyle, making all the right decisions, never touching alcohol or any moral sins with girls. He served a mish, did four years of college, straight A student, then on to the Navy where traveled all over the world to awesome places while having them pay for his medical degree and eventually landed a job as a derm in CO making good $$. Chad is pretty prideful about his life and even when we were kids, always right about everything, very confident, etc. He's been in all the callings up to Bish and that's a heavy one in CO where participation is less and there may only be 3-5 great families that carry the load of the big callings. He's also in great shape, races bikes, and avid skier. His only vice is music. He frequents the concert scene, but mostly for 80's and 90's bands, so nothing terribly hardcore but still pretty edgy from the church point of view.

So with that as the foundation, I'm trying to come up with some possible methods and topics of discussion for when that day arrives, probably this summer, that will help me. Perhaps I just dabble in this or that topic, just briefly, just to plant a small seed. I don't know, I'm just throwing this out there right now.

[RubinHighlander]

There's a couple of videos I've been watching that I thought might help as I think about and study the process by which one becomes indoctrinated and how they might get out. This one is a good one that shows how hard facts and questions do not change somebodies religious views:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWeHB4qM1Hg&t=710s

One along the same lines on political views and how emotions are actually stronger than facts:

http://www.npr.org/2017/03/13/519661419 ... ent-enough

I think back to when I first started experiencing the most cogdis over the things on my shelf. It was me being honest and showing my emotions and feelings to my TBM that helped her begin to entertain the thought that the church could be BS and it added weight to the things on her shelf.

Now that being said, I have no idea if there's anything on Chad's shelf and really I can't worry about that. I just want to find a way for him to empathize with me, so perhaps if I stick to the emotional side of my disaffection...

Of course this may not work, because Chad already sees me as a 2nd class Mormon, even if I was still active. This is because he knows I did a bit of partying in HS and I've had a divorce, as compared to his perfect TBM life so far.

[Red Ryder]

I'm still working on my "shelf breaking" algorithm but let's discuss the variables.

1. The path out is like a game of chess.
2. Self disclosure is a lot like confession.
3. Zadok's rules state "Never Confess!"
4. If you must confess you left the church, the best way to confess is to live a happy and wonderful life.
5. Quiet simplicity: "I left because it no longer works for me."
6. Truth is irrelevant and fleeting.
7. Empathy is not the same as sympathy. Some people understand this. Others do not.
8. An existential crisis accelerates opening your mind to new ideas.
9. The sky is always blue somewhere.
10. Penguins make lousy dance partners.

Each one of these 10 variables will align differently like our individual DNA. The key here is having small conversations with Chad over time that lay the foundation for your big reveal. Take time to emotionally connect over these small conversations and guide him to connect the dots for himself until he figures out the end result. Often times, it's what your "not saying" that speaks the loudest!

One last thing.... While it sounds like you envy Chad a little, he probably is envious of you just the same!

[Corsair]

I'm with Red Ryder on this point. This is not an easy conversation to initiate and it's far too easy for the whole affair to come off as condescending. It's great to pursue your friendship, but you will need to let him bring up the church. You are best off simply ignoring the church until he inevitably has questions. Treat your friendship as if it has only your shared experiences together while you treat the church with indifference. Answer questions he might bring up, but it is customarily unhelpful to offer any details they don't ask about.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

One last thing.... While it sounds like you envy Chad a little, he probably is envious of you just the same!

I have a friend who coined the term "condesenvy".
It is defined as when a TBM simultaneously feels envy for a post mormons freedom while also having a condescending feeling towards them.

I agree that the most effective method is not to engage on topics or facts but rather to demonstrate happy carefree lifestyle while being non-compliant with the church. For me, Bill's younger brother "Tyler" escaped the church and lived a super cool happy lifestyle on the west coast and therefore caused me severe condesenvy, leading to cognitive dissonance and eventually existential crisis.

[Zack Tacorin Dos]

Rubin,

I agree with the others. I watched the first video you linked to and it reminded me of my naively high hopes for evidence to rule the day during my early disaffection and the experiences that taught me otherwise.

I've only really gotten deep into the trenches once with a would-be apologist I know. I wasn't particularly close to the person, but I'm fond of him and respect him. The experience diminished my fondness and respect a little. The man's very intelligent, but seemed to have a particularly hard time being rational about anything to do with Mormonism. More proof to me that belief is not necessarily about intelligence. Highlights included comparisons of my religious perspective to Korihor's (no offense NOM Korihor), his defending of woo I had brought up to demonstrate the peril of not using critical thinking, etc.

I'm still glad we did it. It was by email and local leadership and my wife were copied on everything. I dont' think I persuaded them one iota, but, If nothing else, they all became aware that my position was well thought out and that I was willing to consider the evidence. I'm not delusional enough to think I'm nearly as disinterested or unbiased as my friend had indicated, but they had to realize that from an outsiders' perspective, Mormonism (historically, doctrinal, and for some even emotionally and spiritually) has very little to offer a fairly disinterested party.

Your friend is intelligent. If you do get into this, I suggest you leave the burden of proof with him. For example, instead of "I know Mormonism is true," I'd stick with "I have no reason to believe Mormonism is true." Regardless of your friend's genius, he'll almost certainly come up with very little to make a case for the literal truth claims of the Church. If his case is all about practical theology ("it works for me"), that's wonderful for him, but that gives you no reason to believe or support Mormonism if it doesn't work for you.

I hope he shows some interest in your disaffection. The more people are exposed to disaffected but good people, the better in my estimation. I think this leads to normalization, more acceptance, and less judgement of non-believers.

But if it goes badly, let us know so we can be there to protect you from the kind of kidnapping and wrongful imprisonment the wise people of Ammon perpetrated against Korihor

Zack

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

I hope he shows some interest in your disaffection. The more people are exposed to disaffected but good people, the better in my estimation. I think this leads to normalization, more acceptance, and less judgement of non-believers.

Exposure to disaffected good people reminds me of the church proselyting claim that it takes 7 contacts with the church before conversion can take place. Must be true on the other side of things too.

[RubinHighlander]

...if it goes badly, let us know so we can be there to protect you from the kind of kidnapping and wrongful imprisonment the wise people of Ammon perpetrated against Korihor

Thanks Zack! Glad you got my back!

Often times, it's what your "not saying" that speaks the loudest!

Love the list Red Ryder and especially love that "not saying" part. I think there's real substance to that "condesenvy."

You are best off simply ignoring the church until he inevitably has questions. Treat your friendship as if it has only your shared experiences together while you treat the church with indifference. Answer questions he might bring up, but it is customarily unhelpful to offer any details they don't ask about.

So far I'm really liking what you guys have laid down here. I do think it is best not to jump into anything anytime soon, but just let the old friendship flourish into non-church related activities. I hope that to show him my happy life, demeanor, etc., is the evidence that will present first and foremost that I'm not broken but thriving. Later this could be a key point of dissonance for him if he then learns of my disaffection. As FiveFingerMnemonic pointed out, this worked on him as he observed peers leaving and living happy lives and it certainly worked on me as I observed the same thing with my peers and former mish comps. I think I'll buy that season pass at the local resort and will take lots of pics of the pow day fun day Sunday snowboarding, not to throw it in his face or anything, but just for my own personal enjoyment