Moment of anger.....

[Rob4Hope]

I've been listening to Bill Reels pod cast out there about excommunications, and heard about (an have found quotes as well) Amy Brown Lyman's statement to her husband Richard (the apostle) that after their second child was born she:

informed Richard that their relationship from that point on would be celibate, living in amiable harmony.

This lady was subsequently made, later in her life, the 8th General RS President.

And Richard, her estranged husband, got excommunicated for having a relationship outside of his marriage.

Question: why didn't they haul her ass up there to the board and ex her?....instead they rewarded her and made her the RS President?

I've got whiplash trying to keep this all straight. It DOES go to show that in the LDS faith, refusing your spouse can be done with impunity. The church doesn't care about being told NO...even over and over for decades, but if you act out...BAD BAD BAD...and you get it.

I'm sooooooooo glad i'm out.

The teachings of the church that marriage is the foundation and the fundamental unit of a church is the family is total and complete BS. The only thing that matters is having your name on a legal document saying you got married. If you hate each other from that point forward,...no big deal....as long as you BUILD THE CHURCH.

[Corsair]

The saga of Richard Lyman is the gift that keeps on giving. I have a lot of sympathy for the guy and cannot fault him for how he tried to deal with his wife by having his polygamous affair on the side. The fact that he kept up this charade for 20 years as an apostle is indicative of Elder Lyman's perseverance and the complete lack of discernment in hundreds of meetings with President Heber J. Grant and a dozen other duly ordained apostles.

[Rob4Hope]

The way they captured Richard Lyman in the "very act" is rediculous, and I am talking about the MEN who did it--out sneaking around and breaking down the door. That is breaking and entering, assault, and a few other things. They broke the law to do what they did, but they were justified because they were acting for God?

Where do the apostles and prophets get off?!....I mean really!

[Rob4Hope]

I'm feeing some real anger tonight....even HATRED at this RS president lady,...and all such women like that. And, I am feeling some real anger, even HATE toward men like JFS and HBL.

Those guys ruined my marriage, they ruined a massive portion of my life, and they did it in the name of GOD?...they have ruined my whole belief in anything higher than man and reason.

They were arrogant, egotistical deluded charlatans, taking supposed scriptural references and speaking as though they themselves were GOD.

HOW DARE THEY!!!!!

[Give It Time]

I'm sorry for all you've been through. I didn't listen to the interview and, in my own search, couldn't find any more context for the quote than what you provided. At any rate, my grandmother was woven from similar cloth. I don't know about Mrs. Lyman, but from what I'm finding on her indicates a lack of desire to have more children (she seems to have been independent and ambitious) and a repulsion at abortion (being Mormon and there were precisely two forms of reliable birth control at that time, celibacy and abortion). Given the lack of scandalous hints at a a clandestine lesbian relationship, I'd throw in a dose of asexuality, to boot. Don't blame him for how he handled it, either. It looks like he tried to be as honorable as possible, given the circumstances.

Like I said, I didn't listen to the interview and couldn't find further information. So, there may have been some sort of punishment on her part involved.

At any rate, these sorts of mismatches are a major reason why I'm jaded on marriage. I don't think Mrs. Lyman was marriage material. Mr. and Mrs. Lyman should have been able to live in amiable divorced harmony. He never would have been an apostle nor she GRSP. Perhaps that would have been for the best.

Anyway, sorry for the crap you've been dealt. You're right. The church has this magical way of taking a crap situation and making it a whole lot worse.

[2bizE]

Where do the apostles and prophets get off?!....I mean really!

Well, JS got off with Fanny Alger, Helen Mar Kimball, and about 30 more women.

[Not Buying It]

At any rate, these sorts of mismatches are a major reason why I'm jaded on marriage. I don't think Mrs. Lyman was marriage material. Mr. and Mrs. Lyman should have been able to live in amiable divorced harmony. He never would have been an apostle nor she GRSP. Perhaps that would have been for the best.

Does a wife have the right to refuse her husband sex? Sure, it's her body, being a husband doesn't give a man control over his wife's body. That said, sex is part of a healthy marriage. Amy Brown Lyman had no right to think that a "celibate" marriage where they lived in "amiable harmony" was an acceptable and appropriate marriage arrangement.

Does a wife need to give a husband sex whenever he wants? Of course not. But if a wife never has sex with her husband, generally there will be consequences to the health of the marriage relationship. If two people don't ever want to have sex with each other, they shouldn't be married unless they are both 100% on board with that and committed to that.

[Rob4Hope]

Where do the apostles and prophets get off?!....I mean really!

Well, JS got off with Fanny Alger, Helen Mar Kimball, and about 30 more women.

LOL That sums it up pretty good. I cuckled when I read this. I needed that chuckle. Thank you.

[Rob4Hope]

If two people don't ever want to have sex with each other, they shouldn't be married unless they are both 100% on board with that and committed to that.

I couldn't agree more. I don't want to rehash old stuff I've posted on this site, but the "ONLY" thing you can have in marriage outside (from the LDS perspective) is sex. So, from that perspective, SEX is the reason marriage exists. Cut out the sex and unless your statement above holds true (which I think it does), there is no reason for the marriage.

Mr. and Mrs. Lyman should have been divorced. They had, in my humble opinion, no reason for being married.

[Give It Time]

If two people don't ever want to have sex with each other, they shouldn't be married unless they are both 100% on board with that and committed to that.

I couldn't agree more. I don't want to rehash old stuff I've posted on this site, but the "ONLY" thing you can have in marriage outside (from the LDS perspective) is sex. So, from that perspective, SEX is the reason marriage exists. Cut out the sex and unless your statement above holds true (which I think it does), there is no reason for the marriage.

Mr. and Mrs. Lyman should have been divorced. They had, in my humble opinion, no reason for being married.

Even though I agree with both NBI and R4H, I'm choosing to quote R4H, because it encases both thoughts. I absolutely agree.

Whatever is arranged in a marriage is the two consenting adults business, but the consent must not be coerced in any way. Also, both parties should be able to revisit the issue, at any time. The Lymans were married a long time. The second love interest, from what I can gather came along much later than the second child. Even if Elder Lyman had initially agreed, he should have been able to sit down with his wife and either renegotiate or divorce. No fault divorce didn't become legal in Utah, by reading and understanding of the source, 1987.

It's unfortunate, birth control wasn't until the second wave of the women's movement and no fault divorce until the late 80s. Of course, in the church's eyes, the second hasn't happened, yet, and never will.

I was wondering if we know how the authorities found out about this? Did someone see or suspect something, or was he ratted out?

[Rob4Hope]

I read that Harold B. Lee and Joseph Fielding Smith were the ones who hid out and broke in, busting him and witnessing against him to get him exed. It is interesting as well that Joseph Fielding Smith was one of the main proponents of anti-contraception. He was one of the main ones, as was JRC who said it was SERIOUS SIN to have sex with out the intent of having children--that the only proper way to not have children was to be celibate. And, I have on record where Harold B. Lee conseled people that oral sex was from the devil and that it was unthinkable to even CONCEIVE of the THOUGHT!

These people were prudes--yes, but they enforced their teachings through legal means, through force, through coersion, and I wonder how many laws they themselves broke. It is ILLEAGAL to break into a home. Hum...did they have a search warrant that said: "Find man in bed naked with woman.." as what they were looking for?

This is crazy.

[Give It Time]

Actually...It sounds like a power play. The jaded me says this sounds like a power play. Like he might have had information on them, or something.

Sorry. Just seems kind of fishy.