nom/AMA with John Hamer

[CaptainSalty]

John,

I saw you registered here this morning and unfortunately accidentally deleted your account. It came through with a batch of spam accounts and I selected all and hit delete before your name caught my eye. I couldn't undo it in time.

My apologies. Please take a minute and register again. We would love to have you here.

Captain Sorry!

One more thing... If you know Thayne, let him know we would still love to get the content from the old board back. For posterity's sake. We're willing to pay for it in scotch!

[AllieOop]

John,

I saw you registered here this morning and unfortunately accidentally deleted your account. It came through with a batch of spam accounts and I selected all and hit delete before your name caught my eye. I couldn't undo it in time.

My apologies. Please take a minute and register again. We would love to have you here.

Captain Sorry!

One more thing... If you know Thayne, let him know we would still love to get the content from the old board back. For posterity's sake. We're willing to pay for it in scotch!

I hope he's sees this and registers again! I love John Hamer and would be thrilled to have him here posting again. What a wealth of knowledge he has and I love having someone post here from the Community of Christ church.

(I'd also love to get all the content back from the old NOM board )



**********************

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Dang it, the wheat got thrown out with the tares!

[CaptainSalty]

Welcome John!

Glad you made it back. How about we turn this thread into an AMA?

I'll start. I'm a big fan of your maps and writings on early Mormonism. How did you get involved/interested in producing Mormon themed maps? Have you done anything recently for the mainstream LDS church?

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

John what are your thoughts on the theory advocated by some that Sidney Rigdon and Parley Pratt were involved from the beginning (pre Kirtland) in the "Gold bible company"? Do you find any of the evidence compelling or is it far fetched?

[MalcolmVillager]

John what are your thoughts on the theory advocated by some that Sidney Rigdon and Parley Pratt were involved from the beginning (pre Kirtland) in the "Gold bible company"? Do you find any of the evidence compelling or is it far fetched?

Yes, I also heard a podcast on that and it made a lot of sense.

And welcome to a hero and a celebrity!

[John Hamer]

John what are your thoughts on the theory advocated by some that Sidney Rigdon and Parley Pratt were involved from the beginning (pre Kirtland) in the "Gold bible company"? Do you find any of the evidence compelling or is it far fetched?

I don't think there's much of any evidence. We lack anything primary accounts prior to the 1834 publication of "Mormonism Unvailed" which is when the Spaulding theory is first published. After the theory is articulated, its proponents go interview people who perhaps remember Joseph Smith Jr. hanging around with mysterious figures who are reputed to be Rigdon.

The basis of the Spaulding theory is the Conneaut affidavits (gathered by a cousin of my ancestors' Doctor Philastut Hurlbut) which seem compelling on their surface. However, they are contradicted by the rest of the historical record which is vast. They were adequately explained by Fawn Brodie more than half a century ago and pretty well all scholars on the topic have agreed with her. We have recovered the Spaulding manuscript and since it covers the same basic idea --- the myth of the Moundbuilders --- as the Book of Mormon, we can see why the memories of the people in Conneaut were confused. (The idea that there was a second Spaulding manuscript is speculation created by advocates of the Spaulding theory who refused to accept the evidence when the actual manuscript was recovered.)

Meanwhile the Book of Mormon itself argues on almost every page that its true author is Joseph Smith Jr. It predicts him ("Joseph son of Joseph"), it predicts the Anthon affair and reacts to Anthon's mention of "Egyptian" characters, it has the same tropes uniformly throughout (bland black and white characters, no use of color adjectives, no female characters) that illustrate uniformity of authorship, the small plates section (Lehi's family) is clearly autobiographical for Joseph Smith Jr. and Lehi's visions actually re-use Joseph Sr.'s visions, the text has the marks of oral composition (i.e., a person composing by speaking aloud, as in an orally composed prayer or sermon). Moreover, while the text reads very much like Joseph Smith's later compositions, it sounds nothing like the Spaulding manuscript that we have in our possession.

In short, the Spaulding theory adds nothing to our explanation of Book of Mormon origins except unwarranted theoretical complexity. The only positive evidence for the Spaulding theory (the Conneaut affidavits) is easily explained. Since Joseph Smith Jr. indisputably wrote large sections of the Book of Mormon (the Lehi story, predictions of himself, Words of Mormon, Moroni's instructions for founding a church) and since these are written in the same voice as the rest of the work, there is no reason whatsoever to imagine a lost secret source and a broader conspiracy.

[John Hamer]

Welcome John!

Glad you made it back. How about we turn this thread into an AMA?

I'll start. I'm a big fan of your maps and writings on early Mormonism. How did you get involved/interested in producing Mormon themed maps? Have you done anything recently for the mainstream LDS church?

Hi, thanks! I'm glad to see this board back online. I've always enjoyed the tone and culture of NOM among online bboards related to Mormonism.

Regarding maps, one of my many professions has been (and continues to be) as an illustrator for history books, historical museums, and even documentaries. I've created maps for Columbia, Oxford, Michigan, lots of other university presses, as well as the Smithsonian, the Strategic Air Command Museum, etc. My academic background is as a Medievalist and an expert on Medieval maps. Of course, I also do the history of the Latter Day Saint movement, so producing maps related to that field was a natural extension.

I do occasionally continue to do maps for entities related to the mainline LDS Church. For example, I did all of the maps on this large color commentary on the Doctrine and Covenants that BYU put out a few years ago. Also, although I didn't produce the maps for the new LDS Church history museum, the maps in the museum directly reference my mapping work in a way that shows that I've very clearly changed how the mainline LDS church sees its own history in maps.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

John what are your thoughts on the theory advocated by some that Sidney Rigdon and Parley Pratt were involved from the beginning (pre Kirtland) in the "Gold bible company"? Do you find any of the evidence compelling or is it far fetched?

I don't think there's much of any evidence. We lack anything primary accounts prior to the 1834 publication of "Mormonism Unvailed" which is when the Spaulding theory is first published. After the theory is articulated, its proponents go interview people who perhaps remember Joseph Smith Jr. hanging around with mysterious figures who are reputed to be Rigdon.

The basis of the Spaulding theory is the Conneaut affidavits (gathered by a cousin of my ancestors' Doctor Philastut Hurlbut) which seem compelling on their surface. However, they are contradicted by the rest of the historical record which is vast. They were adequately explained by Fawn Brodie more than half a century ago and pretty well all scholars on the topic have agreed with her. We have recovered the Spaulding manuscript and since it covers the same basic idea --- the myth of the Moundbuilders --- as the Book of Mormon, we can see why the memories of the people in Conneaut were confused. (The idea that there was a second Spaulding manuscript is speculation created by advocates of the Spaulding theory who refused to accept the evidence when the actual manuscript was recovered.)

Meanwhile the Book of Mormon itself argues on almost every page that its true author is Joseph Smith Jr. It predicts him ("Joseph son of Joseph"), it predicts the Anthon affair and reacts to Anthon's mention of "Egyptian" characters, it has the same tropes uniformly throughout (bland black and white characters, no use of color adjectives, no female characters) that illustrate uniformity of authorship, the small plates section (Lehi's family) is clearly autobiographical for Joseph Smith Jr. and Lehi's visions actually re-use Joseph Sr.'s visions, the text has the marks of oral composition (i.e., a person composing by speaking aloud, as in an orally composed prayer or sermon). Moreover, while the text reads very much like Joseph Smith's later compositions, it sounds nothing like the Spaulding manuscript that we have in our possession.

In short, the Spaulding theory adds nothing to our explanation of Book of Mormon origins except unwarranted theoretical complexity. The only positive evidence for the Spaulding theory (the Conneaut affidavits) is easily explained. Since Joseph Smith Jr. indisputably wrote large sections of the Book of Mormon (the Lehi story, predictions of himself, Words of Mormon, Moroni's instructions for founding a church) and since these are written in the same voice as the rest of the work, there is no reason whatsoever to imagine a lost secret source and a broader conspiracy.

Thank you! Very nicely explained.

[Anomalous Anonymous]

Since Joseph Smith Jr. indisputably wrote large sections of the Book of Mormon (the Lehi story, predictions of himself, Words of Mormon, Moroni's instructions for founding a church) and since these are written in the same voice as the rest of the work, there is no reason whatsoever to imagine a lost secret source and a broader conspiracy.

Nice to see you here, John. Nice enough even to bring me out of lurkage. I have a question about this--do you consider Cowdery, and possibly Emma Smith, as co-authors of the BoM? Do you think they generated certain sections, or just clarified what Smith was saying, and that's why some of Cowdery's portions read more smoothly?

[moksha]

Ran across a medieval map that would have been of great interest to many early Mormons since it was the repository of much gold:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vtnPamecITg/S ... _Map_1.jpg

Anyway, welcome.

BTW, a seer stone might be needed to decipher these reformed runes.

[John Hamer]

Nice to see you here, John. Nice enough even to bring me out of lurkage. I have a question about this--do you consider Cowdery, and possibly Emma Smith, as co-authors of the BoM? Do you think they generated certain sections, or just clarified what Smith was saying, and that's why some of Cowdery's portions read more smoothly?

I think the whole thing was dictated. The scribes are sitting there writing and they may well have been giving feedback (via facial and other cues, questioning what was spoken) as the writing progressed. I presume the reason why the composition went so fast with Cowdery is that he and Joseph Smith developed a symbiotic system. But I presume the primary mechanism of creating the text as we have it was Joseph Smith actually dictating (orally composing) words. Then in between sentences even, there could have been all sorts of collaborative input as Joseph Smith asked the scribe to react to the text. The next sentence dictated could incorporate the feedback. Then in off hours, there could be all sorts of bouncing ideas around, and brainstorming (without Cowdery or possibly even Smith thinking this illegitimated the process).

The process was collaborative and fluid enough that Cowdery wanted to try the dictating part himself and Joseph even agreed (although Cowdery couldn't muster the words on that end of the stick). So I see JS as the primary author/composer as all the words are coming out of his mouth. Nevertheless, in the rest of his career, he's an idea-sponge that repurposes everything that's in his sights, so I imagine that if anybody gave him idea in the off-times, that could easily be worked into the text.

[Obadiah_Dogberry]

When I grow up I want to be like John Hamer.

Okay...fanboy mode disengaged. It's great having you here!

AMA Time -
What brought you to Canada and when?

[John Hamer]

When I grow up I want to be like John Hamer.

Okay...fanboy mode disengaged. It's great having you here!

AMA Time -
What brought you to Canada and when?

Thanks, Obadiah. Why did I move to Canada. It was a long process. After 2007, our business became a virtual office and so we were able to move to anywhere in the world with internet. I had membership in the Toronto congregation of Community of Christ in 2010. Legal change of residence from US to Canada was in 2013.

We picked downtown Toronto out of all other options for many reasons, here's some:
• It's the most diverse city in the world, we value diversity
• We wanted to leave car culture behind and live in a downtown with transit
• We like Canadian politics and social values
• We like Canadians culturally and are happy and excited to be Canadian
• We like the gay community in Toronto
• We like the climate in Toronto
• Among world-class cities, Toronto is still relatively inexpensive
• Toronto is well situated to suffer relatively minimally in the face of a Global Climate Change catastrophe
• The city is wonderfully walkable, full of cultural events
• I love Community of Christ congregation here; and the Canadian Community of Christ church
• We are still very close to the US and can continue to interact with friends and family there
• We were born and grew up in the Great Lakes region and Ontario is quite related to the culture on the US side

[Red Ryder]

Are you still in contact with anyone from the old Exmo Social board?

That was such a great place for awhile.

[John Hamer]

Are you still in contact with anyone from the old Exmo Social board?

That was such a great place for awhile.

Yes, there was a great online community built up there for quite some time. I'm in some contact with half a dozen of the former members, mostly through being Facebook friends.

[Hagoth]

(although Cowdery couldn't muster the words on that end of the stick).

Yeah, literally, as in dowsing rod!

[wtfluff]

(although Cowdery couldn't muster the words on that end of the stick).

Yeah, literally, as in dowsing rod!

Hee hee... I caught that one too, but I held my tongue (fingers).

Touché, John; And it's great to have you 'round "these parts" again...

[Hagoth]

Yeah, John, you're my favorite Sunday School teacher. I'm tempted to move to Canada, and not just for reasons of Trumpxit (kinda like Brexit but for the purpose of fleeing America Made Great Again)

[John Hamer]

Yeah, John, you're my favorite Sunday School teacher. I'm tempted to move to Canada, and not just for reasons of Trumpxit (kinda like Brexit but for the purpose of fleeing America Made Great Again)

I teach church school every Sunday morning at 10. Love to have you.