This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
Caligurl2012 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:10 am
I thought that was you when I was listening to the podcast episode yesterday. You did a great job!!!
Where have you been Caligurl2012?? You can't drive by and post like this. We need an update...
clean sweep wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:12 am
I don't hardly post much at all anymore. You have had quite the journey M. My DW Sargent Sweep listened. She also thought you did a great job. What you told us all solidifies that the church is really an American religion that bases what it does on religious colonization. Be not therefore terrified, for they have no power over you. Stand firm in the truth as it really is. Be cheerful and filled with gladness.
You done good
Same thing... No drive by posting! Where have you been Clean Sweep? We need an update...
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
Even McDonalds allows for variation in the menu when the local culture demands it. The General Authorities at McDonalds discovered that the French did not like processed American cheese slices, although they found the Belgian fries acceptable.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha
I finished listening to the podcast last night. Great job!
It was good to hear the problem of European LDS Church delcine laid out from those living it. There were a couple of main points I gathered from all of this.
First of all, there are no easy general solutions for reorganizing; if you leave the units short-staffed , it hurts people; if you consolidate and create geographically large units, it hurts people. I feel bad for all involved in this, even the GAs. I appreciate a little better you're frustration with the Church. It seems your frustration stems from your love of the Church. I wish there were some easy solutions for the sake of you and others there.
The second big take away for me was that cause of the Church's decline in Europe is multi-factorial, and to a significant extent, outside the control of leaders, but you and others brought up one big factor that is well within the control of the general leaders. They are fully capable of giving more control to the regional or even local leaders. I don't think this would be easy for them. I wouldn't be surprised if they thought they are not capable of doing this because they may believe their centralized control is the revealed will of God. I don't think relinquishing their centralized control would really stem the flow from the Church in Europe significantly, but I do think it would go a long way to help those who do stay. As I thought about this after listening, I kept thinking this line from "This is Gospel" by Panic at the Disco: "If you love me let me go." To me so much of that song resonates with the idea that they should let go of their control. Just a crazy non-theist here, but doesn't allowing others to grow through their own experience with choice and responsibility work better with the teachings of Jesus?
Thanks my friend for sharing and teaching in the podcast,
Zack
Last edited by Zack Tacorin Dos on Sat May 18, 2019 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
That was a very informative podcast episode, Brother Meilingkie. It was fascinating simply to hear your voice and find out how to correctly pronounce your name.
I'm certainly agreeing with other comments that identifying a solution is a really thorny problem. I don't see a good way for this to happen since simply easing up on some LDS restrictions is not the bullet proof solution. Being less "American" makes a lot of sense, but finding a core purpose for attending a church is a very difficult problem. Mormons have a good cultural answer for that problem in strong LDS areas in the western United States. But the Dutch are not American, are not British, are not French, and are not Spanish. More local control is not something that the LDS church does very well.
I have not paid as much attention as I should I guess as I didn't know you mentioned on NOM you were going to do this. I listened on my flight home from AZ) where I met up with real life NOMs Korihor, Corsair, Red Ryder, Emower, and others.
I figured that was likely you as the story went on. You did great. You definitely challenged the leadership but didn't cross boundaries that they should discipline over.
I lived the podcast. It was great to see Mel and listen to him speak. A few thoughts?
1) Mel speaks very good English. I knew he does from his posts, but do most Folks from the Netherlands speak English so well? How is it taught in schools?
2) Many of the problems are related to historical issues and American culture issues. The cultural issue is a big problem. Gina Colvin calls out this problem frequently. Trying to package American mormon culture and make all Earth tolerate it very problematic. Think of Mauri cultures of tattooing and Indian cultures of piercings and tattooing. Try telling those people they are bad because of their culture. I am curious about what cultural values in The Netherlands clashes with Mormonism?
Wanted to bump this story for future news reports. Sunday is just two days away. Will there be balmy weather or storm clouds over the Netherlands? On the SLC front, wonder what activity has taken place with the clandestine Strengthening the Membership Committee?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha
Here a paper of an old Stakepresident of our Stake.
Emeritus Professor in Cultural Anthropology, Walter van Beek.
this got published in Dialogue and indeed talks in colonizing terms about the Church, and it´s relation with Europe.
He´s also they guy I mentioned who at a meeting last week told us the Church will disappear if we don´t start telling the truth instead of the whitewashed history.
I don't know how you looked so calm but any tremblings were undetectable. As well, I thought your very relaxed, articulate, respectful, and thoughtful insights made for a great interview. This is just a little 'yeehaw' from me to a fellow NOM who stepped up to the plate with some degree of risk. I've read many of your comments on NOM and appreciate your commentary.
Stay calm. I heard nothing that I would think should cause you any alarm. If you are getting pushback, I expect it's an expression of fear of the obvious when you see the exodus of good, solid members en mass as you so masterfully laid out for us.
I also echo much of what has been posted.
A humble thank you for putting yourself out there like you did. Wow!
Cum omnia defecerunt, ludere mortuis. (When all else fails, play dead.)
--Red Green
SunbeltRed wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:02 am
Listening now!
It is awesome to put a voice with the texts I have read and heard here.
Good luck my friend, it will all be ok.
I agree, it's fun to be FB friends now too. Well done, Marco!
“As I walked out the door toward the gate that would lead to my freedom, I knew if I didn’t leave my bitterness and hatred behind, I’d still be in prison.” ~Nelson Mandela~
"Judging others does not define them, it defines you ...."
~Wayne Dyer~
I found that time spent on the boards was generating stress. I am still around, have not resigned, DW is not attending at all any more and this last weekend the stake executive secretary called at least four times but would not leave a message. They have no power over us anymore, period. It's not that I don't like the boards it is that I just don't find I need the outlet found there. I look in from time to time and try to get folks to do the Lucky 13 group I have. that is about it.
The organization and constant onward sweep of this movement exemplifies the resentment of the many toward the selfishness, greed and the neglect of the few. John L. Lewis
clean sweep wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:57 am
I found that time spent on the boards was generating stress. I am still around, have not resigned, DW is not attending at all any more and this last weekend the stake executive secretary called at least four times but would not leave a message. They have no power over us anymore, period. It's not that I don't like the boards it is that I just don't find I need the outlet found there. I look in from time to time and try to get folks to do the Lucky 13 group I have. that is about it.
Congrats on the recovery and progress with DW!
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:30 pm
Good pod cast sir!
I commend you on your integrity and courage!
It brought back some memories to hear about Manchester and one of the Ashton wards closing. I served there 83-85. At that time, Manchester was the highest baptizing mission in Europe. I will also say the quality of the proselyting and the converts was not what I would consider quality work. It was definitely improving with my mission prez vs. the previous one, as I heard many stories of many kids getting baptized after being invited to learn how to play baseball and other such shinnanagans. I knew the stories were true because we visited many of those inactive members. I felt bad for my friends serving in Germany and Austria at that same time, as they reported little to no success.
I think all of this shrinkage will simply be written off by the COB and believed by the serving TBMs as the last days prophesy for separation of wheat from tares. It will just make the remaining few hunker down into their pool of dogma and feel even more special than they already do.
Shrinkage of the wheat and tares versus "the gospel will fill the whole earth" prior to the second coming--another of those irreconcilable LDS paradoxes. Oh and well done Mel. Most excellent podcast.
Oh and well done Mel. Most excellent podcast.