For Your Consideration

[Give It Time]

A few months ago, I had to have a difficult conversation with my bishop. In preparation for that conversation, I had several conversations with people with appropriate experience and expertise. One piece of advice I received was to try to find a way to connect with the man behind the Church Handbook of Instructions.

A few months before this conversation, the citizens of this country did something that shocked and stunned me. They elected Trump to the presidency. They surprised me even more by being proud of that choice. Then, the people who really didn't want Trump in office surprised the Trump supporters by rioting. It was during this time, my SIL started discussions trying to parse how this came to be. I commented: "clearly, we need to do a better job of listening to each other".

We complain a lot that our families and friends don't listen to us. For your consideration, I suggest the following, if we want them to put down the Sunday School manual, we need to put down the CES Letter, put down the studies, put down the statistics. Find a way to connect with the person behind the Sunday School manual and give them a way to connect with the person behind the CES Letter. Will they be converted? Probably not. Will we? Probably not. However, we will have a better understanding of one another and maybe just maybe find a place in the middle we can meet from time to time.

[SunbeltRed]

I don't disagree with you.

Largely my approach is that I DO NOT proselytize my positions and beliefs about church. I hated missionary work when I was in the church, I hate it as much on the other side. It bothers me when people write in cesletter.com in BofM's at hotels or on chalkboards. I don't find it amusing and it represents many of the things that I actively dislike and despise about the way the church operates. However, that is also my personal view and I understand that others may not see things that way and I am in no way calling out anyone here who has done that, it's just not how I personally wish to spend my time.

To your main point, I have never trotted out any of the materials that you mentioned, I still maintain active friendships with believing members and will only comment about church if asked, I couch everything as this is my opinion, and if my active friends vent to me about church I try to help them find solutions so they can continue in their activity and faith.

That being said, nobody really wants to hear my side of the story. I have barely been to church in the last year, I drank a cocktail in front of our wards YM president, and yet nobody is interested in talking to me about my church experience. And I guess, I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of why and how active members are where they are, having been there once myself.

So yes, we should maintain civility, we should attempt to maintain friendships where possible, but mostly active Mormons are not interested in hearing my story and it seems have not made any attempt to engage with me. So be it. Maybe they feel threatened, maybe my lack of activity makes it impossible to connect with each other, maybe nobody really cares, maybe people are busy? Maybe my anecdotal story is not the norm, but it feels within the normal bounds of what typically happens.

I appreciate your perspective and I think it behooves us a humans to treat each other with respect regardless of where we fall on the religious and political spectrum.

[Corsair]

The challenge is that their is no single approach or line of reasoning that will reliably allow people to connect when they are on different sides of the apostate divide. Spamming the CES Letter is largely ineffective, but I do have a closeted apostate friend that handed it to his wife and she joined his apostasy a few hours later.

We have a common complaint levied against the LDS church: their rhetoric about people that leave the church is shallow and inaccurate. The accusations of "wanting to sin" and "being offended" have the distinction of being cliches but are still stated by our believing friends and families. I would love to make better connections with the believers in my life. My attempts have very mixed results. Even among the successes I still am faced with friends who ostensibly respect my views but really do not want to validate my concerns. Virtually no believer wants to discuss this further.

I am still searching for a better way to communicate with people on the other side of the belief spectrum. I did not choose to be born in a faithful LDS family. But I am choosing to continue participation with believers in my life. I simply have not found a reliable way to talk with them that leaves us both feeling comfortable.

[Bloodhound98]

I love what you said. You speak to my soul! I have only been going through this process for a month or so, but I can't agree more. There has to be a way for us to find a middle ground. I strongly believe so many TBMs don't want to listen because we are rooted in anger or in their minds anti literature.
Ok so let's say we are the smart ones. Well if we are so damn smart and now the truth from the lies then we should figure out a way to let everyone else know!!!!!
We can't go about it just shoving CES Letters down people's throats. We have to be articulate and actually make people think. I have found just a tiny seed of doubt can go along way. It's up to them to ask questions. Not you forcing them to believe as you do. You are no better than the church by forcing any of them to believe the way you do.
Awesome post

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Understanding what is occurring in a cognitive way is key. Facts simply don't matter until they do. What I mean is, all of us use emotion as the primary method of decision making and in how we percieve the world, only using facts afterwards to rationalize our choices. We do use rationality to limit choices but ultimately emotion rules the day. We all have a different "movie" in our heads about what constitutes reality and they are all different. Even then, the vast majority live just fine in their movie and are able to breed and perpetuate the species just fine. We have to recognize that our movie, while different from their movie, still doesn't represent pure objective reality and be humble about it. Our movies have somehow changed script. They will probably continue to change script dynamically throughout our lives. Respect others "movies".

[wtfluff]

I hated missionary work when I was in the church, I hate it as much on the other side. It bothers me when people write in cesletter.com in BofM's at hotels or on chalkboards. I don't find it amusing and it represents many of the things that I actively dislike and despise about the way the church operates.

I also hate "missionary work"...

But: If it's OK for the LDS Corporation, with their good partner: Marriott International to put awful bible fan-fiction (Book of Mormon) books in billions of hotel rooms all over the world, then someone advertising cesletter here and there isn't a very big deal, is it?

Yeah, it might be useless, but you know what they say about a seed planted...

[Give It Time]

I don't disagree with you.

Largely my approach is that I DO NOT proselytize my positions and beliefs about church. I hated missionary work when I was in the church, I hate it as much on the other side. It bothers me when people write in cesletter.com in BofM's at hotels or on chalkboards. I don't find it amusing and it represents many of the things that I actively dislike and despise about the way the church operates. However, that is also my personal view and I understand that others may not see things that way and I am in no way calling out anyone here who has done that, it's just not how I personally wish to spend my time.

To your main point, I have never trotted out any of the materials that you mentioned, I still maintain active friendships with believing members and will only comment about church if asked, I couch everything as this is my opinion, and if my active friends vent to me about church I try to help them find solutions so they can continue in their activity and faith.

That being said, nobody really wants to hear my side of the story. I have barely been to church in the last year, I drank a cocktail in front of our wards YM president, and yet nobody is interested in talking to me about my church experience. And I guess, I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of why and how active members are where they are, having been there once myself.

So yes, we should maintain civility, we should attempt to maintain friendships where possible, but mostly active Mormons are not interested in hearing my story and it seems have not made any attempt to engage with me. So be it. Maybe they feel threatened, maybe my lack of activity makes it impossible to connect with each other, maybe nobody really cares, maybe people are busy? Maybe my anecdotal story is not the norm, but it feels within the normal bounds of what typically happens.

I appreciate your perspective and I think it behooves us a humans to treat each other with respect regardless of where we fall on the religious and political spectrum.

Thank you for this. What you say about Mormons just not wanting to hear your story is what I've found to be true. So, I've pretty much dropped my story. I tell my story for moral reasons, but I think it even more immoral to force my story on others.

This just occurred to me, this morning. See, in my searching, I dabbled in Wicca and the premise of a spell/wish/desire is that when you cast a spell on someone else, you cast it on yourself, as well. A year ago, I read a post by a grieving father who's gay son had committed suicide. He was responding to a comment and he wrote, "close the Sunday School manual and look at the situation". I thought that a fantastic phrase. However, as I said, I realized this morning, if we want them to close the Sunday School manual, we need to close whatever factual tome we have in our hands. Really look at and listen to each other.

Frankly, I think the outcome will be agree to disagree, but it has more hope of being loving, rather than exasperated.

[Give It Time]

The challenge is that their is no single approach or line of reasoning that will reliably allow people to connect when they are on different sides of the apostate divide. Spamming the CES Letter is largely ineffective, but I do have a closeted apostate friend that handed it to his wife and she joined his apostasy a few hours later.

We have a common complaint levied against the LDS church: their rhetoric about people that leave the church is shallow and inaccurate. The accusations of "wanting to sin" and "being offended" have the distinction of being cliches but are still stated by our believing friends and families. I would love to make better connections with the believers in my life. My attempts have very mixed results. Even among the successes I still am faced with friends who ostensibly respect my views but really do not want to validate my concerns. Virtually no believer wants to discuss this further.

I am still searching for a better way to communicate with people on the other side of the belief spectrum. I did not choose to be born in a faithful LDS family. But I am choosing to continue participation with believers in my life. I simply have not found a reliable way to talk with them that leaves us both feeling comfortable.

Excellent points. Where I have been carefully trying to discuss things, actually, is with Trump voters. Luckily we are mutually curious after the fallout. The discussions are a little difficult. I don't try to convince them, merely explain my strong objections to the man. However, I have to admit I'm learning some things about people I care about that I don't want to know. It's one of those things where you look at each other and realize the impasse. It's kind of a sad moment, but we both are still seeking common ground (thank heaven for cute animal videos).

[Give It Time]

I love what you said. You speak to my soul! I have only been going through this process for a month or so, but I can't agree more. There has to be a way for us to find a middle ground. I strongly believe so many TBMs don't want to listen because we are rooted in anger or in their minds anti literature.
Ok so let's say we are the smart ones. Well if we are so damn smart and now the truth from the lies then we should figure out a way to let everyone else know!!!!!
We can't go about it just shoving CES Letters down people's throats. We have to be articulate and actually make people think. I have found just a tiny seed of doubt can go along way. It's up to them to ask questions. Not you forcing them to believe as you do. You are no better than the church by forcing any of them to believe the way you do.
Awesome post

Thank you.


It's kind of like that caterpillar. You can't help them out of the cocoon. It has to happen on its own. As far as my ward is concerned and my family. It's a matter of letting them know I care about them. Wrapped up in that care is my viewing then we people who are smart and can figure things out on their own.

[Give It Time]

Understanding what is occurring in a cognitive way is key. Facts simply don't matter until they do. What I mean is, all of us use emotion as the primary method of decision making and in how we percieve the world, only using facts afterwards to rationalize our choices. We do use rationality to limit choices but ultimately emotion rules the day. We all have a different "movie" in our heads about what constitutes reality and they are all different. Even then, the vast majority live just fine in their movie and are able to breed and perpetuate the species just fine. We have to recognize that our movie, while different from their movie, still doesn't represent pure objective reality and be humble about it. Our movies have somehow changed script. They will probably continue to change script dynamically throughout our lives. Respect others "movies".

Excellent.

There is 1/10,000 of a second between stimulus and emotional response. We may not all act on that response or act on the same way, but the response has happened. It is also possible to change that response by changing our movie scripts. I changed my script, just today, and a situation arise and my reaction was completely different from what it would have been yesterday. It was a very remarkable lesson in detachment, for me.

Yes, a simple change in perspective can change everything.